Maria> Saul: No sweat over Burma/Thailand...

Saaaaaul, noo problem! Those kind of mispreceptions happends - it only make you more human! I thought first that I might have "picked" the wrong country since I did the map in a hurry. :) Actually in feb. when we were in Thailand for my friends wedding we went to relax couple of days close to the boarder towards Burma. You sense the years of opression at the Thai side...
:(

It would be really intressting to follow how the "evil countries/regimes" develop during diffent epochs. Countries like Algeria are now "acceptable" in the west while countries like Russia always are seen with scepticism (from the "western world" atleast...)

If I had to pick three "evil regims" they would be as follows;

1) Equartorial Guinea > from desperate poor to mean selfserving billion dollar dicator
"the president exerts almost total control over the political system and has discouraged political opposition. Equatorial Guinea has experienced rapid economic growth due to the discovery of large offshore oil reserves, and in the last decade has become Sub-Saharan Africa's third largest oil exporter. Despite the country's economic windfall from oil production resulting in a massive increase in government revenue in recent years, there have been few improvements in the population's living standards."

(world police)

2) Western Sahara > the forgotten Palestine!
"Morocco virtually annexed the northern two-thirds of Western Sahara (formerly Spanish Sahara) in 1976, and the rest of the territory in 1979, following Mauritania's withdrawal."

(world police)

more...
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0759052.html

3) Bruma - What we know is enough to act! but then oil usually has the last word in democracy fights...
"Despite multiparty legislative elections in 1990 that resulted in the main opposition party - the National League for Democracy (NLD) - winning a landslide victory, the ruling junta refused to hand over power."

(world police)

Reg. Western Sahara there is every year a film festival in the desert to bring the world and some hope to this tormented people. It some awesome spanish that organize it. I would love to go next time... To be apart of that somehow...

: m

Saul > Maria: Oops. I don't know how to read a map

Oops. I don't know how to read a map of the world! Very embarrassing. I thought that was Burma. By evil countries I mean the regimes, the governments that run those countries.

Look forward to your response,

Shabbat Shalom,

Saul

Maria > Saul: No suprises cause Thailand is not Burma! (part II)

Hi Saul,

I just very fast have to reply to the "Burma vacation". No, I have not been to Burma (Myanmar). And I would never go either especially under this horrible regim. I am also very sceptical on the "democracy effect" tourism has. Saul, you have misstaken Thailand for Burma on the flickr map! (see the map here > http://www.uwm.edu Map Thailand.jpg)

I would never claim that there are "really evil countries" in the world - how is that possible at all? And by doing that does that mean that the other "non evil" countries never have done anything as evil? Or can be evil at all? And is it the country (the mountains, streets, people, arts, food aso) that is evil or the persons/ideology that run it the system?

I am not a fan on biography but If I ever get around hers would be one of the "musts". She is the greatest!

Lala Tov.

: m

Saul > Maria: I saw this great joke about Jews at

Hi again Maria,

I saw this great joke about Jews at "The most "alsome" quotes on Overheard in New York"

Chick: How come we're always talking about how the Jews were persecuted? Lots of people have been persecuted. My people have been persecuted, too.
Professor guy: Um ... This is "Introduction to Jewish-American Literature".
Chick: ... Yeah, but still.

Apparently the web site has real conversations overheard (but I doubt it). OK, let me get serious now.


You are right! We are not the "David". I thank God every day we are a very strong, wealthy nation. We have a great military might, universities of international standard, universal health care ... the list goes on. Do I need to apologize for this? I am proud that my country is advanced and strong. Some Israelis think that if all the Arabs and Muslims would unite against us then we would be finished. This is not at all likely to happen.

You have to stop generalizing about "the Palestinians". There are different Palestinians.

• Israeli Palestinians are full citizens of Israel and always have been. Of course they can go wherever they want in Israel and can work or be employed in Israel. Just like Israeli Jews they cannot go to Gaza or the West Bank. I have never heard of an Israeli Palestinian who gave up his rights as an Israeli. When there was a suggestion to exchange territories with the by which some Israel Palestinian towns would become part of Palestine there was an enormous protest from the residents of these towns! Sometimes also called Israeli Arabs.


• West Bank and Gaza Palestinians are NOT Israelis, they cannot enter Israel without special permission and they are not employed in Israel. Their government Hamas in Gaza and Fatah in the West Bank) does not recognize Israel. When most people write "Palestinians" they usually mean the non-Israeli Palestinians, I think we do too.
  

Israeli Arab kids playing with horses



I find the Palestinian arguments against the wall and complaint about the lack of employment by Israel as strange. Palestinians want independence, they want their own state. This will never be achieved as long as Palestinians are working on minimum wages in Israel. The wall is an opportunity for the Palestinians to wean themselves off Israel, to have their own viable economy, to be a nation. I find your expression "old slaves are exchanged for new slaves" absolutely horrific and utterly nonsensical. If it is true then it is best to free the slaves!

A Jew (Dan Sieradski) praying at "the wall"


photo by jewschool

For now it is not possible for Palestinians to work in Israel. A small minority of these workers were involved in lethal terrorist attacks on Israelis in Israel. It is too dangerous to have them in our midst. There were even incidents of Palestinian workers who had worked for years with a Jewish employer and one day came along and murdered them. (There was enormous pressure on these people to clear their names, as if by working in Israel they were "Zionist collaborators"!) The most effective means to stop the terrible attacks on us was to prevent all West Bank and Gaza Palestinians entering into Israel, including the building of a wall. Any country that would not take such actions would be failing in its basic duty to protect its own citizens.

I believe in my country, its right to defence, its weaknesses and capabilities. I make no apology for this, I am Jewish, Zionist Israeli. What else do you expect? We act in our own interests, we do not owe anyone anything. If not employing West Bank and Gaza Palestinians is good for Israel and bad for the Palestinians then it saddens me but that is that. It would be marvellous for the Greek economy if Greeks had freedom of employment in America. Do you think the Americans are going to allow this?

Israel is not responsible for the Palestinian economy. Years of corruption and waste, a total lack of planning and the continued dependence on the outside (including on Israel) and the pariah the Hamas Government became in the world has not given the Palestinian economy a chance. Israel blocked taxes ever since Hamas won the elections but since Fatah took over in the West Bank money will/has been paid to them. I do not understand why we give money to the Palestinian Authority? I think that the Palestinians should pay us for the financial damage the terrorist attacks caused. Maria, there is a war going on. The Palestinians (even Fatah) are our enemies. Who ever heard of a country paying money to its own enemy, this is just crazy. Stupidly we paid millions to the Palestinians and even gave them guns and ammunition. This must stop. Some believe that Fatah is OK and the real enemy is Hamas and the other extremists, I do not think so. The same guns we gave the Palestinians have been used against us. We were very naive.

One day the Palestinians will grow up.

• They will understand that the Jews in the region are not going back to Poland and Morocco. We are here to stay, Israel is a fact. 6 million people are not going to find homes elsewhere!

• They will realize that the use of violence as their main means of achieving political gains has caused them enormous suffering.

• Their consistent refusal to compromise territorially is short sighted. In 1937 they rejected the Peel Commission, in 1947 they rejected the UN partition plan and in 2000 the Palestinians rejected the Wye Agreement.

• They will set up a viable, independent Palestinian state that does real work for its own people. That state will respect the human rights of its own citizens, and will of course really recognize Israel as a fact.

THEN, and only then, will there be real peace in the region. Israel and Palestine and probably Jordan too, will create an economic community, their will be sharing of resources (transport, water, human). Countries that share things, that have common goals do not attack each other, they work together.

That article from www.challenge-mag.com is excellent. I have not read such a good analysis of events - especially on the difference between the two Intifadas - as is written there. Challenge is going to join my favourite on-line reading with electronicintifada.net and www.bitterlemons.org. I already subscribe to www.haaretz.co.il (to the Hebrew paper edition) and I think I will get one to www.acheret.co.il.

I just read an excellent criticism of Israel military policy at www.acheret.co.il, by Yair Sheleg (of Haaretz). This is a quote:

"Deterrence does not sufficiently address the issue because of its inherent paradoxical nature: When Israel is victorious, it succeeds in deterring its enemies for a while; however, Israeli victories further motivate the losing side to launch new rounds of hostilities. Deterrence always includes frightening the other side. While a frightened rival may hesitate to launch a new attack, the sense of humiliation that accompanies the fear further inflames the desire for revenge and awakens the drive to amass even greater strength in order to win the next round".

This - in my view - summarizes all what is wrong with our treatment of Palestinian violence. Not just air force attacks on terrorist leaders but also all those stupid roadblocks. Daily Palestinian men are humiliated and annoyed by Israeli soldiers (girls), this is just a breeding ground for terror.

Your lecturer sounds like a real idiot. You know in the world we have an image of Swedes as very liberal and egalitarian! Academics are supposed to be thinking people. What is this professor? Do you find it difficult to study from a man like that or can you separate the man from the subject he is teaching? What can you do about it? Sometimes the best is to do nothing, because to make a fuss will draw attention to the stupidity and it is best to ignore it (this works very well with children).

What is "shmolt" coffee?

I was looking at your map on your flickr profile page you have travelled a lot. A very lot. You have bben right through South America. Have you been to Burma? I am very surprised. What were you doing there? How did you like the regime there? In my mind there are only a few really evil countries in the world: North Korea, China and Burma. Years ago I read Aung San Suu Kyi's biography she is the greatest.

S a u l

(your Israeli friend)

Maria > Saul: regarding part 2 - double moral & "neutral seeing"

SELAM SAUL,

And so finally I got some time from moving out & in and getting used to be two. Still don´t know what happend to half of the summer thoug?
:)

And now to your loooooooong rich text and our summer dicussion. I have seperated them in diffrent responses. This the first adressing the DOUBLE MORAL and "THE PEACE BEFORE INTIFADA".


Saul, I just cant for the world understand this national pity anthem Israel has. any critism is either hate/double moral/bias/anti (choose any at any time) and in some cases claimed to be "anti semitist" propaganda against a obviouse struggling, alone, small, virtuness "David" Israel. Sorry, that´s not how it works. Israel is nation with 200 nuclear missiles and the best conventional army, the highest industrial and technological capacity in the region and is not a poor little David, rather Goliat!


(David & Goliat - in carpets. Taken 2006 in Palestine)


Regarding the "democracy" it´s as week it can get and still get away with that lable. I wrote a paper on this and it´s amazingly intresting how smart the other system behind the"democracy" face works. the apartheid. but more about that later...

One must be able to critize, demand answers and responsiblity from Israel without
at the same time including other countries. How otherwise can I ever talk to you about issues in Israel without having to including let´s say a person from Marocko and Us? It´s if the critierias varies (as usaually when Usa get´s into the play) from countries to countries that double moral is a claim. Israel fearfully fights any report by any organisation or personand applies of above claims. It´s like Israel can not be critised rightfully nor is responsible at all at anything which it creates and does. A sort of circle discussion. This is cleverly done and practised all the time and by getting away with it Israel is itself practising double moral. For surley no other country can do what Israel is doing and have been doing since 1948: stealing land & water, distroying palestinan fabric, emposing apartheid, building a wall and bantus and always blaming the victim aso..

.............................................
An example:
Israel rejects Amnesty report urging end to West Bank fence

"Israel's Justice Ministry, however, said the 45-page report made only passing reference to Israel's right to self-defense and paid insufficient attention to the threat to Israeli human rights posed by the militants.

"The lack of emphasis on the centrality of Palestinian terror and the obligation of the Israel Defense Forces to protect Israeli citizens as a result is unreasonable and creates a deliberately misleading impression," a ministry statement said." (http://www.haaretz.com)

.............................................

Regarding the "double moral" of foreign workers in Israel. Ofcourse it´s possible to have palestina workers in Israel. They built your country more or less and by the week position they have in Israel in regard of human rights and workers rights have always been a great target for scaming, abusing and other power games played by employees. It´s because Israel wants to "reduce mutual dependence" (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world) that " it is too dangerous" to allow Palestinians to enter the country". And instead
Israel´s plan is as stated below:

.............................................

"The use of foreign workers in Israel reveals a clear and open policy of substituting Palestinian workers with a workforce from overseas - Asia, Eastern Europe and Africa

...Israel, like many Western nations, has a need for additional cheap labour. Foreign workers have been brought in to replace Palestinian workers. However, the Government is anxious not to have a settled workforce, partly because it is regarded as a temporary phenomenon, and partly to preserve the Jewish nature of the state, so it has restricted foreign workers to a maximum stay of two years, with virtually no civil rights." (http://www.fidh.org/magmoyen/rapport/2003/il1806a.pdf)

"In the area of social rights and terms of employment, Palestinians working in Israel and the settlements are oppressed and discriminated against in a variety of ways. Palestinian workers are one of the weakest sectors of the Israeli labor force. They are therefore an easy target for exploitation and oppression by private employers." (http://www.fidh.org/article) .............................................


So old slaves are exchanged for new slaves. And miles and miles will be written on the relation of poverty struck out of colonialism, imperialism and it´s fundamentalistic expression but in Israel only it´s security, it´s right to exist, it´s right to water and normality exist.... Or as Peres said back then ""Employment is the best answer to violence". That is if it´s peace, coexistance and human rights that Israel wants for itselfs?

So why do I pick on Israel when Israel is doing what every other country is doing, using foreign workers!? Well nowhere is there a responsiblity (read the ”blame” circle discussion) in that Israel is strangeling the Palestinan economy by block tax refunds, exportation of olive oil and movement of people and goods in Palestine and at the same time knowly excludes Palestinian laborers. This is a policy of apartheid and must stop! Another example of double standard? But then again Israel can never be blamed for anything because the security reasons can´t never be problematised. Israel must have the right to choose the best economic strategy for itself (foreign workers) and at the same time distroyes it´s inter tweened neigbour economic. Surly there must be someone in Israel that also believes in that building common fundamental economic possibilites creates platforms and highways for peace? What do you think? Why must Israel´s right be by dening Palestine to exist? (Looking for an answer that is not ”security reasons” if possible?).


Saul, I find it amazing that so many Israelies (actually everyone that I have meet) can´t distance themself from the "David" role and glaze at the same situation with other glasses?! This sounds like asking a colonial Belgian in Kongo during their colonial hightime about a comment on the situation and then assuming that it covered everyone in Kongo (while King Leopold raped, killed tousend and stole systematically in Kongo). No seeing is neutral as You know so why should Israelis be? You say that there were peace before the 2:nd intifada? Peace for whom? Wasn´t it during this "peacetime" that the Westbank saw the beginning of the building boom that even today shows no signs in slowing down?

………….
" Leading up to the second Intifada there were long years of political exhaustion in sterile negotiations with Israel. The standard of living plunged. The legal system proved nonexistent. Arafat carried out a reign of political terror. There was one lone attempt on the secular plane at organized public protest: the Manifesto of the Twenty, published on November 27, 1999. This criticized the PA's corruption and its collaboration with Israel. It did not receive significant public support and was quickly put down."
(intresting reading about the intifadas: http://www.challenge-mag.com/74/intifadas.html)
………..

And surly there must be another perspective on the second Intifada and why It blow off? How much obviouse can it get when a massmurderer (sabra & shatila) and rasist political leader as Sharon enters the Al Aska moskee? It must be clear that he didn´t want to have a chat with peaceful muslims about a peaceful two-state solution in a peaceful climate! Sadly I hear & read so many times the more "offical story" that since the Palestines are violent the second Intifada started out of that reason. What´s your view Saul?
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre).



Regarding feminism, I just had a awful lecture in rethoric where my professsor said some really sad thing. Among others he said that "I think that women only should seperate their legs at nighttime". When I told him afterwards, that I by the end of the day proberbly would have seperated my legs around 10 times (at least) and none of them were for having sex and ask him what he had to say to that fact he just mumbled. I later mailed him to get him to explain his statement - why should women only seperate their legs at nighttime? If a professor in rethoric says that, he means it - surly he must be able to argument for it?!
So far nothing...

Now I need to take a walk around the block to get a some fresh summer air & maybe I will get a latte. Actually, one of the best latte I ever had so far were the shmolt (israeli latte) you got at every ordinary gas station or coffeplace. Cant for the world say why (the milk?) but it still occupy a high mark on my list...

later...



:m


All links:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/866768.html
http://www.fidh.org/magmoyen/rapport/2003/il1806a.pdf
http://www.fidh.org/article.php3?id_article=3257
http://www.challenge-mag.com/74/intifadas.html (recommend this one!)

Maria > Saul: right now! gaza is burning.

right now!
gaza is burning.
palestine is dividning just as US planed it.
and your letter is burning in my inbox.

:)

M

Saul > Maria: This is part 2. Wow I have written so much. Too much. Hope you can read it all.

allå Maria,

This is part 2. Wow I have written so much. Too much. Hope you can read it all.

Too often Israel is held up to standards that no other country is held to: double standards. It is wrong to ask of Israel behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation. There are more than a few in what you write.

Here we have one example. So what if foreign workers replaced the West Bank and Gaza Palestinian workers. Yes there are foreign workers in Israel. All wealthy countries have foreign workers. First the West Bank and Gaza Palestinians worked here and now, because of the terrorism, of a small minority, it is not possible for them to work in Israel any more. Now the foreign workers come from Romania, China, Thailand and elsewhere. You can see the same all over Europe and in all wealthy countries. Why pick on Israel about this? Go and ask the Saudis why they have Asians workers and the British why they have Polish!

I did write that the hate is mutual:
"You are right the root of the problem is hate: yes Israelis hate Arabs. The years of fear of wars and terror have caused this to happen. It is very sad. Israeli children have been brought up for decades fearing Arabs and hating them. Maybe Arab children are brought up the same way".
I really cannot add to that.

You are right, I said that it is difficult to understand the Palestinians. I think most Israelis (across the political spectrum) also do not understand the Palestinians. The 2nd Intifada was very important, we just do not get it. Here was peace, here was the beginning of Palestine and then we got violence. There are many cases of left-wing, liberal Israelis who supported peace who just gave up in 2000!

What you say about me, and my ideas on feminism, is very interesting. I think that you are clever to tie the two together. Of course Israeli Palestinians study Zionist history and Hebrew. In all countries the minorities have to study and accept the cultural norms of the majority. In my history books in the UK when I was in school the knights and the crusaders were good and honourable and Christian. In reality they were a murderous rabble and Jews were massacred by them all across Europe and in Israel. The Jews were on the side of the "infidel" Arabs!

"Bedouin children and typical houses in Tel Sheva"



Have you read what is happening in the Palestinian areas now? If that is what the leaders and the militias do to their own people, what will they do to us one day? Call it paranoia if you like, just read what the Hamas are doing to the PLO and vice versa. These are the same Palestinians who kill their own daughters and sisters for immodesty. Are you a feminist? Someone has to do something to stop Arab men killing their own daughters and sisters. I do not care if you call me racist. In situations like this we put niceties aside, we need to speak clearly. Israeli liberals (people like me) have made crazy statements like "if only we would give them the occupied territories, there will be peace". You tell me if this is correct! Israel has signed dozens of peace treaties, invited Arab leaders again and again to talks, it is even in our Declaration of Independence. The peace treaties do not work. We are still ostracised, and there is no peace. My conclusion is that there will never be peace until the Arabs see the last Jew leaving the Middle East. I am against peace treaties, they do not work, we need to get ourselves to trust each other, what the Americans call "confidence building measures".

What do you mean about the Druse in the Golan paying taxes for rainwater they collect? Never heard of this.

Rabbis do not decide about death in Israel. The secular parliament decided that marriage and divorce (personal law) of Jews would be in the hands of the Rabbinical Courts. Only the actual divorce is rabbinical, the secular Family Courts decide everything else: child custody, alimony etc. The JNF owns most land in Israel. The JNF is not allowed to discriminate against non-Jews. An Arab cannot be denied residency anywhere in Israel, even in closed Jewish settlements set up by the JNF. To compare us to Iran is hilarious. Even the draft (and relatively liberal) Palestinian constitution says that Palestine shall be a Muslim country ruled by Sharia.

Israeli Jewish boy planting trees in Israel on Arbour Day (Tubeshevat)


Israel is a Jewish State so of course the interests of Jews – the majority – come first. The interests of the minorities are respected and upheld by law. This is the double standard again. It is that same in France and Greece and everywhere, you care for your own nationals. In Israel it is a little more complicated I admit; Israel is the Jewish State but Israeli Arabs have full rights. Hebrew and Judaism and Zionism are first, other culture second. It is the same with Welsh culture in the UK, Latino culture in USA etc.

I do not understand what happened to you when you came to Palestine/Israel. Did you come with preconceived notions? After all you came to work in the West Bank. Did you have a bad attitude at the border: Palestinian flags or something like that? There are thousands upon thousands of tourists who come to Israel every year of all colours and religions and they can tell you a different story. Why do black Jewish Ethiopians fit into Israeli society and why did your (blond?) Swedish friends not get picked on? I do not know. Yes there is racial screening at Israeli security checks and this is because 99% of all terrorists are Arab/Palestinian/Muslim. This is a sad racial fact, and utilizing it just might save someone's life.

Forget the "European Jews on the top", it is old fashioned, dead and buried. There may be rivalry between different ethnic groups of Jews in Israel. So what! Again it is something that happens all across the world (double standards). Ask blacks in Sweden, Bedouin in Kuwait, Africans in Sudan the list goes one. Does it help you that one of my bosses is not a European Jew and the head of my department is also not. My wife is also not! The only ones who go on about the "European Jews on the top" are cheap Israeli politicians out to make a noise in hope of gaining popularity, and that stupid trick usually does not work. (Although I must admit that Israel's leading geographer, OrenYitachel, I mentioned him to you, has written a lot about this, and has pointed out how society here works in favour of European Jews.)

Thank you very much for the compliment: "Saul you write very polite and in an open way. I wonder if you might be a teacher?" and even more thank you that you think my son is adorable!!! My wife will not let me photograph her and she is so beautiful. She is very annoying; she keeps trying to get out of it. She is not really black, actually no one is black or white or yellow, some of us are dark brown or pinkish white and most are something in between.

I am a lawyer. For 4 years I work for a trade union representing workers. Then I left and worked for the police (as a prosecutor) for a year but hated it. After a year in the police I became self-employed and did some labour law, I represented all sorts including lots of foreign workers. But mostly, for 7 years, I did criminal law. I received lots of work from the Public Defender's Office. I dealt withall sorts of nasty cases: my clients were of lots of different nationalities and background, people really on the outside of society. Last year I closed my office and joined a firm of patent agents. I did the degree in management for fun, at the time I wantedto be a civil servant, but I never found a job I wanted. Maybe the next move for me will be to work for a charity or human rights organization - when I have paid the mortgage! I am 40, how old are you? Why do you want to move to Buenos Aires?

s a u l

Maria > Saul: I think that it´s more than 10% than 2%. these surveys are very

I think that it´s more than 10% than 2%. these surveys are very intresting because the question asked is so sensiative. according to one survey in sweden 40% of the men have had a same sex relation. but that fenomen incluedes so much more than just men having sex with men. sexuality is mostly like liquid...

saul, i am just pulling your leg a bit in a provocative way. you as well as I know that there is a survey for every question but I thought is was very funny that you choose to refer to these countries and at the same time beeing insulted by me pointing out "eurocentrism" norms... :)

yeees, i do have gmail! let me mail you! chating sounds nice. your firm really looks like a very "strict" one. here goes my predjudice. i think you should compensate the stiffness that you endure 8 hours a day by plunging your reflections and experience into your blogg! you surly have made the most of flickr. I like that.

now I have another exam to write. in rethoric. thinking of maybe attaching our conversations as a practical example...

:)

Maria > Saul: loooove it! thanx

loooove it!
thanx...

:)

Saul > Maria: You have to see this

You have to see this "One hundred sixty eight". I love it. Great message.

S

Saul > Maria: I chose USA, UK and France because a big survey

I chose USA, UK and France because a big survey was conducted in these countries. The result was that 2% of women are gay and 3% of men. Many still think that the 10% statistic is more accurate. What do you think?

Saul

Maria > Saul: just realized that in defending yourself from my "instult" you narrowed

good morning saul,

just realized that in defending yourself from my "instult" you narrowed down the world into three countries which was and are the worst colonialist countries ever around and from were much of the "whitness" is beeing reproduced.

"Between 90 and 98% of women in USA, France and UK are hetro"


that was exactly my point. by questioning others one has to be aware of the norms that influence yourself but also reduces the world and others.

off to school.
have nice day!

: maria

Maria > Saul: some names are ugly some are nicer.t he Oxford Dictionary´s definition on colonialism fits Israel

hi saul,

some names are ugly some are nicer.t he Oxford Dictionary´s definition on colonialism fits Israel to the word.

I don´t really get it. as a lawyer you know that facts and emtions dont really mix. last of all together with ideology. by saying that the "west bank" is not another country and beyond Isreali borders you know something I don´t know and haven´t been able to find anywhere. what facts do you base that claim on? and how can it be your country? your arguments are absurd to follow. will you soon also claim that the "arabs" immigrated into "your country" looking for work? Maybe a word for Ahad haAm who knew the situation 100 years ago:

"From abroad, we are accustomed to believe that Eretz Israel is presently almost totally desolated, an uncultivated desert, an that anyone wishing to buy land there can come and buy all he wants. But in truth this is not so. In the entire land, it is hard to find a tillable land that is not already tilled; only sandy fields and stony hills, suitable at best for planting trees or wine and, even that, after considerable work and expense in clearing and preparing them”

just prior to the 1948 war, ews owned under 7% of palestine’s land, and to increase their share after the war, they passed the “absentees’ law” which dispossessed the palestinian majority land owners who later became “absent”. What is even more tragic was the passage of an oxymoron law, called “present absentees’ law,” which dispossessed the palestinian-israeli citizens who became internal refugees in Israel. it is worth noting that the internal Jewish refugees were not dispossessed as a result of this racist law.

Again clearly this is not all your country by history or by facts. but by european colonial ideology. that is zionism and zionism was as you know until 1991 labeled as a racist organtisation. but with a lable or not zionism as a system is either is inherently racist or at least fosters racism. "A racist ideology need not always manifest itself as such, and, if the circumstances are right, it need not always actually practice racism to maintain itself."
antiisgood.wordpress.com israel

there is no progress in always defining israel´s policies with "you deny our right to exist". i am actually sick and tired of that "slogan" because it polarises the discussion instead of problemaise it. colonialism is one thing. existing is another. why do Israel choose to exist through colonialism? why can´t israel stay behind it´s boarders? oh, that´s right the dream/vison of Erezt where all land is just Israeli. but that also would include some parts of saudi and a river in libanon. is that next?

yes, jews have lived in palestine for centurys but were they living alone? well Ahad haAm didn´t experienced it not to be so, on the contrary. please, could you direct me to the information about your statement about "the sovereign Jewish state here years ago". I never ever heard about that. rather all I have read about is the english and the french colonialism parting up palestine and libanon and the way the english "handed over" their piece of land to UN (at that time). when the palestine problem was created by the english in 1917, more than 92% of the population of palestine were Arabs and there were at that time no more than 56,000 Jews in Palestine.

what the Israeli palestinians are doing in their native country? guess they are surviving as they are subjected to israeli laws that are different than the laws governing the 4.5 million Israeli Jews. Israeli-Palestinian citizens live almost in segregated communities (or ghettos) because development is strictly limited outside their village. they are the natives just like the indians in US and the blacks in south africa. a feature they share with some jews, durse, bediuns.
what the swedes are doing in sweden? living, having sex and right now sunbathing. to be a swed you dont have to claim a relgion you do as in every other country except of Israel, you get nationalized by applying a citizenship at a goverment institution. and yes, swedes are also colonialists as we have pushed out the natives and almost succesfully broken their fabric.

www.haaretz.com article

please read this great artical by Bradley Burston,
"The Palestinian arguments against recognizing Israel are many, and often well-articulated. Palestinians believe that they should not be made to pay the price of the Holocaust, and they are right. Palestinians believe that they have been subjugated, mistreated, and denied self-determination, and they are right."
www.haaretz.com article

the last palestinas I meet were not talking about "removing" all jews or "throwing them into the sea" but were talking about beeing able to survive. it´s Israel that is pushing them out from their land so I find there statements very very human and basic. they too want to live with water, business, schools, roads, cafeeshops, olive plantations aso.

• israels withdrawel from sinan penisula also gave Israel what it needed more, peace with the stronges neigbour and a border.
• the west bank is a mess. withdrawing from parts of it has nothing to do with peace rather demography. got some really horrid quatos from Isreali academics on that if you want.
• all lebanese territory? how about the shaba farms? what were Israel doing there at all?
• the peace treaty with jordan again turned out to be a greater benefit for Israel. You got your second border and peace. futher more israel secured some of it´s water need.
  

I haven´t heard of Oren but thanx a lot for the tip = i will check him out more throughully.

believe me, i am very aware of the "gap" between the pros and cons regarding the conflict. some of my family are zionist so its also close by ( they however only supports israel because they want jesus to come back and they believe that the jews are the choosen one that can not do wrong). i dont agree what you say as you have noticed. i even in some cases get sad when you write "it´s our land" and justify colonialism as your existance. but i will always respect your view, your experience and your right to express it. you can call me onesided which is another rethoric tactic used in this conflic but ignorant? of what? i however find it astouning that the pro-Israel side can have such a double moral when it comes to its suffering that is copyrighted and has not limits. it´s only Israel security, future, right to exist, right to live normal lives, right to travel freely, right to visit Ein Gedi, right to the rain water, right to the truth, right over the Other... but never can those claims be reversed upon israel. that is onesided paradox.

so I never get supprised by the resentless repeating of slogans like "arabs hate jews", "arabs are terrorist", "they have missed every oppertunity to create their state", "israel is for peace", "zionism is good", "israel is the only democratic country in the region"... as they are more pr than facts.

I have never said that jewishness is evil or bad so that has to stand for you. israel is created on the injustice of what happend in europe during the 2ww and still exists. israel has expanded by ethinical cleansing and war and exists. israel is maintaing an other people and land under occupation and still exists. what israel is in my eyes is worse than south africa. I myself have personal experinces of that which streches 14 years. I have also read books (problerbly not the same as you have) and atended seminares regarding the conflict.

”If Palestinians were black, Israel would be a pariah state subject to economic sanctions led by the United States." (London Observer, 2002 )

zionism for me is the start of it all. by having the kibbutz and laws that made it illegal to sell land to arabs. energizing terrorist organistions like the stern gang with others and then be an active part in the birth of Israel in laws and through organisations and in schoolbooks. zionism is evil as long as you are not jewish.
www.countercurrents.org pa-christison

thomas? aha anomalous. ofcourse you don´t like him and ofcourse I love him. don´t actually know him but maybe I should mail him. i just recently found him and added him to my contact list. you however got hold of me first.

what I agree with you addtionally are following:

• that israel should exist
• that not all israelis are racist or hate arabs or want to kill them all
• that the situation is very complex
• that peace and security is vital
  

sometimes I want to take a short civil course in law but then I thing of everything else that I also want to study so I end up never taking that course. I am 34. and Iong to buenos aires because of the argentinas. lived there for one year and just loved the warmth.
how do you like your camera? i got a canon 5 d and I totally love it. shit expensive and awesome but a bit to big. i loved it when I had a smaller camera that I could carry along easier...

looking forward to part 2.

lala tov.

maria

Saul > Maria: Colonialism according to the Oxford Dictionary

Colonialism according to the Oxford Dictionary and Wikipedia:

"The practice of acquiring control over another country, occupying it with settlers, and exploiting it economically".

"Colonialism is the extension of a nation's sovereignty over territory beyond its borders by the establishment of either settler colonies or administrative dependencies in which indigenous populations are directly ruled or displaced."

Israel is not colonialist. The West Bank is not "another country", it is not "beyond [Israel's] borders". We are not controlling another country. In all of history there never was an Arab country called Palestine or any other country in Israel. Even the Arab countries, Jordan and Egypt that occupied the West Bank and Gaza from 1948 to 1967 did not make an Arab country (Palestine) in these territories. It is our country, all of Israel is ours, at least from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea: Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, Negev, the whole country. That is Zionism. Jews have lived in Israel for centuries. There was a sovereign Jewish state here years ago. Jews in the West Bank are living in their own country not colonizing some foreign place. What are the Israeli Palestinians doing? Colonizing Israel?! What are the Swedes doing in Sweden?

To describe us as colonialists is to deny our right to be here. For most Palestinians we are colonialists anywhere and everywhere in Israel. For the Palestinians all of Israel is theirs and their aim is the removal of Jews from the area.

Please note that most Israelis, from a wide political spectrum, including right wing parties, are pragmatic and willing to compromise on the territory in exchange for peace (or at least quiet). I may believe that Nablus and Hevron are ours, but for many reasons I do not want Israeli soldiers there. About 98% of the territories that were "occupied" by Israel are now longer "occupied" -

• Israel withdrew from the Sinai Peninsula under a peace treaty with Egypt.
• Israel withdrew from parts of the West Bank under the Oslo Accords including major cities, although some places are once again under "occupation" because of anti-Israel terrorist activity originating from there and pending further peace treaties.
• Israel withdrew unilaterally from all Lebanese territory.
• Israel withdrew unilaterally from the Gaza Strip.
• Israel withdrew from other parts of the West Bank under the peace treaty with Jordan.

We in Israel must understand that we have done things that have caused the Palestinians great suffering. First in 1948 the refugee crisis and then since 1967 in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. I am good at the historical stuff, the solution bit is much harder! We need people like you, human geographers to work things out. Have you heard of Oren Yftachel ?

I do not want or expect you to agree with me, or even understand what I have written. But, please understand that the difference of opinion between Israelis and Palestinians. Maybe it so great that there will never be peace. But the first step is to appreciate the enormous gap between us. I am astounded when talking to people like you. The one-sidedness is awful, very unhelpful and very often ignorant. Even amongst Jews and Arabs the spectrum of opinion is wide and there is an understanding of the differences. Then I meet people like you or (Thomas (anomalous)) and it is as if Israel and Jewish and Zionism is the ultimate evil. Please note that there are many things that I agree with you on: the need for Palestinian independence and the suffering of the Palestinian people caused by Israel. What do you agree with me on?

That was only part one. Part two is to follow!

S a u l

Maria > Saul: wait, i would never intensionally insult you or anyone else. what i meant

selam saul,

wait, i would never intensionally insult you or anyone else. what i meant by writing "watch out for the norms of patrichal, whitness and eurocentrism" is the way they work.

beeing white is never a bad thing. that´s the thing. but I am not talking about your skin colour - that would be racism but rather of whitness as an ideology.

"Major areas of research include the nature of white identity and of white privilege, the historical process by which a white racial identity was created, the relation of culture to white identity, and possible processes of social change as they affect white identity"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiteness_studies

I would and could never tell if you are a patriarchal but since we all live in a patriarchal world that´s the norms and structures I wanted to point out. nothing personally.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemonic_masculinity

why should I have to mention if I have a girlfriend? aha, because the norms tell you that such a choice is not assumable if not mentioned or marked? that is hetrosexuality and patriarchal norms in action. your numbers (98%!!?) still envolves a lot of individuals couldn´t I be one of them? (I cant be bothered to problematises the numbers since it´s just that numbers. there are so many numbers but never more than individuals). and yes, it´s ok to assume otherwise our life and world would be to complicated to grasp and navigate within...

but my question here is rather, why did you feel so insulted? in our whole conversation we have been opting diffrent views and worlds against eachother and with them ideologies and rethoric. my wish was only to make you alert that one way of catagoring or assuming people right off is also a way that norms reproduce itselfs and with them the polarisation. (jews - arabs aso) I myself nowdays use variouse technics to find out the sex of the other if really have to know. so that´s why I wanted to know how you came to that conclution.

law and MA in public adminstration...
aha.. intresting. would I be fair to assume that you nowdays also work with in that field?

: maria

Saul > Maria: You write lots of interesting things.

Shalom Maria,

You write lots of interesting things. I need to find the time to answer. I was insulted by your suggestion that I have "patrichal, whitness and eurocentrism" norms. Being white is not a bad thing. Do not be so condescending, I am not patriarchal or e/c. Between 90 and 98% of women in USA, France and UK are hetro, there is nothing in your profile (eg favourites or groups you belong to - I checked before I wrote that your lover is a he) so it was fair to assume that you are straight. I studied law and I have an MA in the management of public administration.

Speak to you soon.

S a u l

Maria > Saul: back on track on a sunny tuesday morning

hi again,

back on track on a sunny tuesday morning.
actually I love what I am studing right now. after working in the IT industry for 8 years and travelling around south america and parts of africa for 3 years I am doing what I always wanted to: study! social anthropology, gender studies, human geography and international relations = that´s me with a postcolonial flavour.
what have you studied?

I find this statement of yours "it is not dangerous for West Bank and Gaza Palestinians to visit Israel, but it is dangerous for us to have them here! " a bit typical. it´s like "they" are one body, the arabs, the palestinans, the terrorist. "they" have worked as your low wage labour for years and years until Israel recently started to import asians for the crap work. "they" the arabs are more than a billion in numbers and that all of them hates Israel is lie. but with the ongoing unjustice and collective killings and punishment of palestinians and lableing all of them as islamic terrorist, how could any blem the arabs of not loving Israel? love and respect should be a two way relation. why is it only enough to mention that "the arabs" hate Israel but never ever mention why or that Israel hates "the arabs".

You say its difficult for you to understand the palestinas. I feel you that you are "suffering" from the same problem as with your feminism - you do acknowledge that they the arabs are suffering but you don´t "understand" why they haven´t taken the oppertunies to create their own state. who´s oppertunities? who´s rules? who is telling who to do what? last time they had a DEMOCRATIC election that we ALL wanted what happened? well, if you don´t understand the palestinas you see HAMAS only as anti-semitic. but if you dare look at the situations and upon them diffrently another picture will emerge. Its the same picture that until just recently israelipalestinans had to study and take exams on zionism in school. it´s the same picture that when a teacher takes her class out on a fieldtrip to mark out the green line it becomes a high level outcry. it´s the way the druse in the golan heights are beeing taxed on the rainwater they collect by the israeli occupation. hamas won because of their social projects which in the occupied territories are non existing because mainly Israel keeps it that way. but hamas won also because it differs from fatha that have played along with Israel without any victories. Israel would ofcourse never let the Other have that, and so the settlements keep poping up and by that excluding the palestinas from their own backyard. where should they go?
please show me the hamas charters and I will show you the zionist charters and other documents on "big Eretz" which works scarly as a grid to Israels expansion and politic.
a funny perspective with the peace agreements and oppertunites is to follow Israels resentless recjection if the Saudi plan, peace talks with Syria aso. This could indicate that as long as the plan dosen´t come from Israel it´s not a "good plan". so what makes the plans proposed by Israel so good and the palestinas "peace haters" by rejecting these plans?

"It is true that there were times when the other side was unwilling to discuss anything, not even the borders of June 4, 1967. But nowadays, the 22 member states of the Arab league declare that they view this border as a basis for peace - an accomplishment no one would have dreamed of 40 years ago.

And so, Israel is missing the opportunity to transform its military victory into its biggest achievement ever. It is losing the war of independence from controlling the lives of others."
antiisgood.wordpress.com/2007/06/04/living-the-lives-of-others/

you are living in their country. it´s not just something they "made up". almost all "israeli" cities have another past than a jewish one. sredot is for one an ethinical cleansed village from 1948. deal with it! it´s not you, as jewish, that are beeing bullied now. it´s actually you, the jewish, that are bulling. the violence from the palestines are justicefied but should not be exused. but since it´s not blind violence in that sense that it has no orgin then the worst thing Israel can do and has done for the last 40 years is to retaliate collectivly and with state power (from the air, in tanks, with bombs aso). do you never ask why there is a palestinan violence? I bet you that if you treated the chines or the romainas as you treat the palestinas they too would rebel, fight and eventually when nothing helps kill you. but since they are not the ones getting killed, bullied or stolen they will not kill you.

"Starting in 1991, Israel has been creating two kinds of expanses between the Mediterranean and the Jordan: a superior, open, developed and improved space for the Jews, and a shattered space tainted by intentional de-development for the Palestinians."
antiisgood.wordpress.com/2007/06/05/in-praise-of-the-occupation/

You say Israel goes first but there is no open road. If Israel goes first the palestinans has to go back and they have gone back in every case, in every major and minor matter. The last just recently when the goverment granted another settlement outside jerusalem on occupied land. The fear of getting killed in the west bank keeps you from seeing or understanding just how much back they have gone. The fear is real for you. but never does it seem to occur why? when I talk to my israeli friend (yes I actually do have some) about this he gets very intense. but it´s because the only time a normal israeli goes into the westbank areas is in the army. an army that is not the "purity of arms" but a colonial occupation power in the west bank. again, why wouldn´t the palestinas hate you when you are in the west bank? why would they differ the army, the state of Israel and the people who benifits from its policy when they in your eyes only are "arab terrorists" and in some rethoric should be deported to there "true" homeland - jordan?

"The Palestinians will never forgive us. Not only those who are alive today, but their children will despise us until their dying day, and theirs and theirs. They will revile us for having occupied them, exploited them, shelled them, and bombed them, and for having robbed them of their dignity and their land."
antiisgood.wordpress.com/2007/06/05/the-arabs-will-never-forgive-us/

why is colonialism bad only in the rest of the world but not in Israel? Israel is by the defintion of colonialism a colonialist and by it´s policies and formost action indeed a colonialist. the new thing here is that we are not talking about the 1800- century but 2007! the rabbin dont run the state of israel but they do decide over marrage, death and divorce don´t they. that´s not something you will find in any democratic state. futher more the state has "franchised" the land property issues to JNF among other zionist organisations. as you said, the region is all about territory and what better to let that be runed by a clearly one-sided and colonial ideology organisation that only have the intress of the jews in mind = ethinical.

yes you are right that there is racisim in sweden. i myself am black but it´s funny that five days in Israel beats all incidents of rasism in my entire 34 year life and i´ve lived in austria, canada, belgium, argentina and visited around 30 countries. i would never judge a whole nation or a people by 1/2 hour. but standing 1/2 hour in any border or checkpoint and watching Israelis in action does add to the picture of Israelis I have gotten by travelling in south america and thailand. I have ofcourse meet some really nice israelis in israel during my stay and abroad in my travells but there is a mentallity that is very deep and hard. one that I have had problems to understand but now when I have gotten a bit more involved I can se orgins from fear. the Israel I visited 14 years ago I didn´t like because of this mentality but my last visit proved for me that yes, that in israel it can only get worse. :(
tell me why I got single handenly picked at every border crossing when I have a swedish passport, travelling with swedes, have no luggage or look like the 30 000 other ethiopians jews in your country. it has nothing to do with me beeing arab or potential terrorist but more that the polarisation and fear that makes israel colourblind. u say that your wive is black but surely anyone from yemen is not black as africans or in your case ethiopian jews or indians? israel jewish hierarchy with the european jews on the top makes me sad but makes sense at the airports...

eliminating fear has to start on both sides and you start by adressing myths and hate rethoric. but also justice must prevail otherwise it is just as you say, pieces of paper.
i still have to figure you out saul you write very polite and in an open way. i wounder if you might be a teacher? i saw the picture of your son and he is adorable!

ps - what makes you sure that my lover is a "he". watch out for the norms of patrichal, whitness and eurocentrism.

gotta go and finish of my paper on the "african image". found a friend in edward said. have your read his orientalism?

peez...

: m a r i a

Saul > Maria: Good luck in your exam. Geography, human and physical, is what the Arab Israel conflict is all about

Good luck in your exam. Geography, human and physical, is what the Arab Israel conflict is all about. I wish I could study that.
Bye,

S

Maria > Saul: ey, feel free to put whatever title you feel like regarding your feminism

selam,

ey, feel free to put whatever title you feel like regarding your feminism. :) once awhile when you bump into anyone with a bit more knowledge about feminism you might have to redefine or defend your way of "emanicipation". best of all would ofcourse be to distance yourself from your self, that is as a white man = norm, and use some skills/empathy of why women act and argue like they do. you say you are for womens right and against the discriminations but equally and automatically YOU decide how. nothing new here more than you do recognize the discrimination.

maybe rough love liberal bootcamp feminism?!

let me answer your letter in two parts (got an exam in 30 min).

you are right. there is a lot of ignorace conserning the palestinan-israeli conflict. but also a lot of propaganda, pr-tricks and rewriting the history. a bustrip to Israel will not make anyone more informed but the already informed. a bustrip to both israel and palestine will however do so much more. I study human geography and it´s scary how Israel defines it´s neighbourhoods physically. how israel has managed to change landscape, social fabric and history by have it´s own roadmap. step by step. I would love to write my paper on this, the physical segration and tactis used by the Israeli goverment but I hesitate. I am not use to the hate, the fear, the systematic unjustice and can´t really handle it = I loose hope in life.

You say that all countries have international boarders. then why dosen´t Israel have that? only towards egypt and jordan. as a matter of fact that together with not having a constitution transformed the birth of Israel into the roadmap of zionism.

"The modern Israeli state was forged in the fires of the first Middle East war in 1948-1949, but from the beginning it was a state without clear borders"
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6669545.stm

to be honest, Israel has no RIGHT to exist as a country in Palestine. The right is a zionist claim based on three rights of which none bears any weight in a rational, secular world. however, Israel do EXIST and that is now a reality. but it exist because of the 2 ww and of UN and should therefor also respect UN which it, as everyone knows, dosn´t. last libanon war when Israel intentionally bombed a UN quater just showed that to the very point. so if Israel got it´s right to exist from UN then the least Israel should do is to respect and follow UN = world.

there are not arabs in Israel. they are all palestines. the way you and everyone else totally refuse to verbalise that is just another way of diminishing them. like the zionist slogan " a land without a people for a people without land" when the fact was that "the land" was already fully occupied. that´s ideological rethoric. it seems that it´s not only the palestinan regions that are dangerouse, how about tel aviv? where the israelipalestinan taxidriver got killed by a "fresh" israeli because he thinks "arabs" are animals...
when it comes to killing the other side both of you are equally to blame. the hebron mosque killing should always stand as a memory of that. I will continue on this but I gotta go to my test...

just one note on the definition of colonialism

"Colonialism is the extension of a nation's sovereignty over territory beyond its borders by the establishment of either settler colonies or administrative dependencies in which indigenous populations are directly ruled or displaced. Colonising nations generally dominate the resources, labor, and markets of the colonial territory, and may also impose socio-cultural, religious and linguistic structures on the conquered population (see also cultural imperialism). "
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonialism

zionism is an european ideology as so many other. what makes it unique is that it clearly states it´s aim and method how to resettle not in "an empty" territory but in an already occupied territory. that is why israel and south africa has been so good friends. specially when "everyone else" try to support ANC back in the 70-80.

gotta go...
will write some more soon..

wish me good luck!
:)

: mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Saul > Maria: Wow, I love that expression: strict rough love liberal. Am I that?

Hi again,

Wow, I love that expression: strict rough love liberal. Am I that? What does it mean? Glorious! And I like your redefinition of my view, maybe I will put it into my group front page: "I am asking women to stop acting as they are living in a patriarchal society". What do you think? I do not want to annoy anyone, I already did that!

I apologize if I spoke to you as if you are ignorant. There is a lot of ignorance, knee-jerk reactions and stupidity regarding the whole Arab Israeli conflict. I should have known that you are better informed as you did some work in the West Bank. Even a tourist trip to Israel is usually enough to help get rid of most ignorance. Sorry.

All countries have international borders. We do not allow West Bank and Gaza Palestinians into Israel and there is a very good reason for that. Israeli and Jerusalem Arabs (they call themselves Palestinian) are allowed to go wherever they want. On the other hand, I cannot visit Arab areas of the West Bank or Gaza , these places are too dangerous for Jews. It is not dangerous for West Bank and Gaza Palestinians to visit Israel, but it is dangerous for us to have them here! A small minority of West Bank and Gaza Palestinians have committed terrorist acts against us in the days when movement was freer. This free movement has been stopped.

You are right that the casualties including deaths on the Palestinian side are much higher. Yes, the suffering of the Palestinian people is great.

I do not think that it is useful to describe Beer-Sheva as an ethnically cleansed city. What are you saying that we do not have a right to live here and in peace? It is not realistic to expect 200,000 to get up and to. Where will we go?

Our government and army have a duty to prevent us getting killed and the way they have done this is by building the wall. It is a wall that saves lives. It causes much suffering (not physical suffering) to the West Bank Palestinians. I am Israeli and I put Israel first: I do not want more Israelis to die because of Arab terrorism. The wall stops this.

Walls are terrible, I fully agree with you, if only we could live like Canada and USA, like Sweden and Norway with no fences. There is a conflict going on here, a dirty, violent conflict. The Palestinians use violence against us - maybe even justifiable violence (after all they say that we live in their country) - but please accept that we are justified in putting a stop to it. I am pleased our army is strong, sadly our politicians who should make peace are weak and short sighted.

I can show you documents - the Hamas charter for one - and statements by many Palestinian leaders that say that all of Palestine is theirs, that Jews have no right to live in Israel. When the Palestinians recognize the Jewish right to a state in Israel then there will be peace. By describing Israel as "colonialist" I think that you too are rejecting the Jewish right to Israel.

We, the Israelis, must also understand that the Palestinians have a right to a land of their own. It is very difficult for me to understand the Palestinians. There were many times that they could have utilized opportunities - in 1947, in the 1990s, and in 2006 - to achieve full statehood. Sadly they have consistently chosen to be violent against Israel, and against themselves (civil war), instead of concentrating on state building. This is not "rational and realistic" behaviour. The Palestinians are victims of their own stupid policies eg the constant use of violence. The Palestinians are victims of the Arab leaders who have done very little to help them. And also the Palestinians are victims of Israel's militaristic policies.

"Sderot Burning"


You are very wrong to say that Israel is a theocratic and ethnocratic state. Rabbis do not run Israel, we are a secular state. We have Muslim and Christian and Druze as judges, army officers (yes Israeli Arabs are officers in our army and police), politicians and more. There is terrible racism in Israel - just like in many places eg Sweden - do a google search and you will read of neo-Nazis and the discrimination of Muslims in your country. Did you read this www.thelocal.se/article? Israel might be ethnocratic but most or all countries are! Sweden is for the Swedish, Japan is for the Japanese etc. You can become Israeli if you are Jewish, were born in Israel (Israeli Arabs are citizens here) or naturalized (maybe because you have Israeli family). Just like in any other country.

The last election in the Palestinian Authority was won by a fundamentalist, anti-Jewish anti-Christian party whose primary political stance is the destruction of Israel and the rejection of negotiations (see Hamas Covenant 1988 and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Beliefs).

Maria, 99% of the terrorists (people that want to kill me and my family) are Arabs. Chinese and Romanian do not commit terrorists acts against Jews in Israel. So of course Arabs are the ones picked on for extra checks at the airport. If Brazil declares war on Israel - as the Hamas and Jihad and
Hezbollahhave - then Brazilians will get stopped at the airport too! The same thing happens in USA and UK because of 9/11 and 7/7; only Arabs and Muslims have a problem with the security there. In any case do not judge a whole nation by your 1/2 hour experience.

You are right the root of the problem is hate: yes Israelis hate Arabs. The years of fear of wars and terror have caused this to happen. It is very sad. Israeli children have been brought up for decades fearing Arabs and hating them. Maybe Arab children are brought up the same way. This fear and hatred must be eliminated to achieve real peace. It is our only chance. Peace treaties are just pieces of paper, the peoples must trust each other.

Where did you move to? This is very exciting. To have someone to love and to be able to live with them is a very beautiful thing. I wish you all the best in your new home. Say hi to your lover from me, tell him that you have a crazy friend in Israel.

S a u l

Maria > Saul: well, let me say that do find your opening funny

elam saul,

well, let me say that do find your opening funny sarcastic.
i actually like that.

sorry I missed that you are a feminist that wants women to stop complaining or acting weak. so in a way you ask women to stop act as they were taught to act in our parachical society and they women should stop making their voices heard about the discrimination. who sets the rules. again? In my book you would be strict rough love liberal not a feminist.

this is funny. don´t u know that NO palestines are allowed to enter the dead sea? ofcourse you don´t! that´s the power of apartheid for you. it work like that in south africa aswell! so what if the manager is palestineians when it´s off limit for the rest?! plz, check this up! because the dead sea is such a commercial zone israel has blocked it totally for ALL palestinians!
I have myself spend a half day at the kibbutz Ein Gedi and got that story from them.

terrorist war! please saul I not your average underinformed american. the second intifada ISRAEL started and we all know how and why but just to fill you in dose ARIEL SHARON and a special visit to the temple mountain ring a bell?
how ever you turn the rethoric and point the finger there has always been and always are much more casualites on the palestinan side. you talk about Beer-shava which is ethnical cleansed city but tell me how many bombs and houses haven´t been demolished in say... gaza? jenin? list goes on...

has it really been quite since the wall was built? or more it´s quite on your side of the fence is it not? how is the life on the other side? where the land, the water, the structure, the fabric is beeing trashed silently? but as long as israel has security on your side of the fence that so smartly cuts off palestine life and only make an exeption for the water everthing is fine. and silent. it´s ridiculous that you even say that the palestines want the whole of Israel. they to are rational and realistic. they want what is theirs. stop blaming them, put words in their mouth, pointing out what they want aso. it is israel that is the colonial state. it is israel that steals, kills, provocates and never talks about it´s own actions. why should palestine "take" an offer from the colonialist? it´s the other way around saul, you could have gotten the peace and security that you so long for but since Israel never has had it in their mind, from the start, to share Eretz with the locals the deal was a nodeal. it´s israel that have had so many oppertunities but the zionist doctorine is genuine.

you are so right. israel is nothing else than a jewish state. it´s actually a teocratic and etnicratic state. sort of a mix between iran and old south africa. the democratic institutions are like skin colour only so deep. but you can never be an israeli born if you are not born in israel. you can be an english born jew with israeli parents but you can never be born a nationality if you are not in that country. I myself was born in ethiopia, as I told you, but because my mom was swedish I got a swedish citizenship. but I am still born in ethiopia. not in france or in israel.

it´s not that I dont look jewish. with more than 30 000 ethiopian jews I sure would look jewish. i got harrsed because I looked like an arab. my collegues didn´t look jewish but they were all swedish and therefor safe. it´s easy to figure this one out. because of the occupation and military power of the "other" you loss is your soul. harrasment, fear, hate, violence are all on the same side of the line. on the other side of the line it dosent matter really from where you are, which passport (remember the diplomat that got harrased at the tel aviv airport) or why only that you can harras. i heard that story of the irish girlfriend 14 years ago when I boared an El Al airplane.

justice is my main core in life. the unjustice that happends in palestine is more than we here in europe can grasp but some of us do. I´ve been in israel as an volenteer on a kibbutz 14 years ago an at that time I as a naiv teenager could sense the hate. last year i visited again in the line of work and now I could physically feel the hate. so, as you proberbly already hunched, I am never going back for a visit!

I do appreciate your letter. as you see I am all POLITICAL. i also believe that we don´t have to agree but can disagree if we have a commonality in respect for eachothers views and persons. photos are good bridge...

what I am? right now dead tired. I have been moving the whole weekend. moving in together with the love of my life.

lala tov!

: m

Saul > Maria: So nice that you wrote to me and such a nice letter

Dear Maria,

So nice that you wrote to me and such a nice letter too.

Firstly, I really cannot remember why I made you a contact. Sorry. Most of my contacts are because they have good or interesting photos. You have some lovely photos that I have enjoyed browsing. Maybe it was because you commented or favourited one of my photos? Anyway my endevour has paid off because you have written such a nice letter!

How dare you say that I am not a feminist!!! I believe in equality. I find it difficult to accept women who act weak or inferior to men (and men that accept or encourage this). I see it a lot, especially some of the awfuls pictures that some "artistic" girls do in flickr. I saddens me and I wrote about it at www.flickr.com/groups/nonfeministwomen.

"Photos of Eingedi, Israel" by Saul


Ein Gedi is a real beauty spot. Palestinians who live in Israel or in Jerusalem can visit Ein Gedi anytime they fancy. The manager of the park is a Palestinian! West Bank Palestinians cannot enter Israel. A small minority of West Bank Palestinians started a terrorist war (the second Intifada) against Israel. This included suicide bombers in buses and shopping centres, drive by shootings and more. The Palestinian Authority did not do enough (anything) to stop this mayhem. Therefore West Bank Palestinians are not allowed into Israel without special permission (which is rare) and the wall was built. There were two bombing attacks in my town (Beer-Sheva) but since the wall was built everything has been quiet thank God. The palestinians believe all of Israel is theirs, Israelis do not agree. Twice - in 1947 and in the 1990s - the Palesinians were given the opportunity to have their own state - and twice they rejected it.

Israel is a Jewish State and all Jews have an automatic right to be Israeli. The same rule exists in almost every country in the world. If you have one parent say French and the other Israeli and you were born in Saudi - then you can be French if you want. French, German, Irish and many others are very particular about this right.

I am sorry you were harrased at the Israeli border. I was harrased entering a government office in Beer-Sheva last week, a very young security guard insisted on checking my bag very, very thoroughly. It is a fact of life in Israel. I was angry with her which is even more stupid of me. Too many times people have smuggled bombs and guns into public places and done awful things with them. Non-Jewish, young women (I think you are one of these) get specially checked because of that horrid story of the Arab terrorist that gave his Irish girl-friend a bomb to carry on the plane and she was pregnant from him. A "harrassing" security guard saved her life and the lives of all the other people on the plane.

You must tell me about yourself. Why are you interested in Israel/Palestine, when are you coming next to visit?! Tell me where you were and about the water issue. What were your parents doing in Ethiopia. Do you speak Amharic and Swedish. I am (ugly) white Ashkenazi and my wife is (very beautiful) black Yeminite, we are both Jewish, our son is half-half. He is stunning. That's all skin deep. What are you? (Wow that is a good question.) I got all political - sorry if that is not your cup-of-tea.

Please write back and tell me your thoughts.

S a u l

Maria > Saul: Hi, i´m ofcourse very flattered that you have added me as your contact! but I don´t understand why since I feel that we really

Hi, i´m ofcourse very flattered that you have added me as your contact! but I don´t understand why since I feel that we really don´t touch base anywhere.

- I am a feminist & u are clearly not (and yes the patriarchal system exist)
- U go to EinGedi waterfall for hiking & I can´t for the day understand why the palestines are not allowed to go there or anywhere else near the deadsea. It´s their land but your vacation place.
- I dout that one can be born as an Isreali anywhere else than in Israel. I myself was born in Ethiopia but lived almost my whole life in Sweden. I will however always be an ethiopian born since it´s the place of birth that determine that. An exeption would be in the humiliating processes at Israeli borders where I turn into any arab and therefor potential terrorist.

the list goes on... and on...
plz, tell me why U have added a person that is as far from yourself as I am.

greetings from a hot summer sunday in Sthlm

: maria