Hi again Maria,
I saw this great joke about Jews at "The most "alsome" quotes on Overheard in New York"
You are right! We are not the "David". I thank God every day we are a very strong, wealthy nation. We have a great military might, universities of international standard, universal health care ... the list goes on. Do I need to apologize for this? I am proud that my country is advanced and strong. Some Israelis think that if all the Arabs and Muslims would unite against us then we would be finished. This is not at all likely to happen.
You have to stop generalizing about "the Palestinians". There are different Palestinians.
Israeli Arab kids playing with horses
I find the Palestinian arguments against the wall and complaint about the lack of employment by Israel as strange. Palestinians want independence, they want their own state. This will never be achieved as long as Palestinians are working on minimum wages in Israel. The wall is an opportunity for the Palestinians to wean themselves off Israel, to have their own viable economy, to be a nation. I find your expression "old slaves are exchanged for new slaves" absolutely horrific and utterly nonsensical. If it is true then it is best to free the slaves!
A Jew (Dan Sieradski) praying at "the wall"
photo by jewschool
For now it is not possible for Palestinians to work in Israel. A small minority of these workers were involved in lethal terrorist attacks on Israelis in Israel. It is too dangerous to have them in our midst. There were even incidents of Palestinian workers who had worked for years with a Jewish employer and one day came along and murdered them. (There was enormous pressure on these people to clear their names, as if by working in Israel they were "Zionist collaborators"!) The most effective means to stop the terrible attacks on us was to prevent all West Bank and Gaza Palestinians entering into Israel, including the building of a wall. Any country that would not take such actions would be failing in its basic duty to protect its own citizens.
I believe in my country, its right to defence, its weaknesses and capabilities. I make no apology for this, I am Jewish, Zionist Israeli. What else do you expect? We act in our own interests, we do not owe anyone anything. If not employing West Bank and Gaza Palestinians is good for Israel and bad for the Palestinians then it saddens me but that is that. It would be marvellous for the Greek economy if Greeks had freedom of employment in America. Do you think the Americans are going to allow this?
Israel is not responsible for the Palestinian economy. Years of corruption and waste, a total lack of planning and the continued dependence on the outside (including on Israel) and the pariah the Hamas Government became in the world has not given the Palestinian economy a chance. Israel blocked taxes ever since Hamas won the elections but since Fatah took over in the West Bank money will/has been paid to them. I do not understand why we give money to the Palestinian Authority? I think that the Palestinians should pay us for the financial damage the terrorist attacks caused. Maria, there is a war going on. The Palestinians (even Fatah) are our enemies. Who ever heard of a country paying money to its own enemy, this is just crazy. Stupidly we paid millions to the Palestinians and even gave them guns and ammunition. This must stop. Some believe that Fatah is OK and the real enemy is Hamas and the other extremists, I do not think so. The same guns we gave the Palestinians have been used against us. We were very naive.
One day the Palestinians will grow up.
That article from www.challenge-mag.com is excellent. I have not read such a good analysis of events - especially on the difference between the two Intifadas - as is written there. Challenge is going to join my favourite on-line reading with electronicintifada.net and www.bitterlemons.org. I already subscribe to www.haaretz.co.il (to the Hebrew paper edition) and I think I will get one to www.acheret.co.il.
I just read an excellent criticism of Israel military policy at www.acheret.co.il, by Yair Sheleg (of Haaretz). This is a quote:
Your lecturer sounds like a real idiot. You know in the world we have an image of Swedes as very liberal and egalitarian! Academics are supposed to be thinking people. What is this professor? Do you find it difficult to study from a man like that or can you separate the man from the subject he is teaching? What can you do about it? Sometimes the best is to do nothing, because to make a fuss will draw attention to the stupidity and it is best to ignore it (this works very well with children).
What is "shmolt" coffee?
I was looking at your map on your flickr profile page you have travelled a lot. A very lot. You have bben right through South America. Have you been to Burma? I am very surprised. What were you doing there? How did you like the regime there? In my mind there are only a few really evil countries in the world: North Korea, China and Burma. Years ago I read Aung San Suu Kyi's biography she is the greatest.
I saw this great joke about Jews at "The most "alsome" quotes on Overheard in New York"
Chick: How come we're always talking about how the Jews were persecuted? Lots of people have been persecuted. My people have been persecuted, too.Apparently the web site has real conversations overheard (but I doubt it). OK, let me get serious now.
Professor guy: Um ... This is "Introduction to Jewish-American Literature".
Chick: ... Yeah, but still.
You are right! We are not the "David". I thank God every day we are a very strong, wealthy nation. We have a great military might, universities of international standard, universal health care ... the list goes on. Do I need to apologize for this? I am proud that my country is advanced and strong. Some Israelis think that if all the Arabs and Muslims would unite against us then we would be finished. This is not at all likely to happen.
You have to stop generalizing about "the Palestinians". There are different Palestinians.
- Israeli Palestinians are full citizens of Israel and always have been. Of course they can go wherever they want in Israel and can work or be employed in Israel. Just like Israeli Jews they cannot go to Gaza or the West Bank. I have never heard of an Israeli Palestinian who gave up his rights as an Israeli. When there was a suggestion to exchange territories with the by which some Israel Palestinian towns would become part of Palestine there was an enormous protest from the residents of these towns! Sometimes also called Israeli Arabs.
- West Bank and Gaza Palestinians are NOT Israelis, they cannot enter Israel without special permission and they are not employed in Israel. Their government Hamas in Gaza and Fatah in the West Bank) does not recognize Israel. When most people write "Palestinians" they usually mean the non-Israeli Palestinians, I think we do too.
Israeli Arab kids playing with horses
I find the Palestinian arguments against the wall and complaint about the lack of employment by Israel as strange. Palestinians want independence, they want their own state. This will never be achieved as long as Palestinians are working on minimum wages in Israel. The wall is an opportunity for the Palestinians to wean themselves off Israel, to have their own viable economy, to be a nation. I find your expression "old slaves are exchanged for new slaves" absolutely horrific and utterly nonsensical. If it is true then it is best to free the slaves!
A Jew (Dan Sieradski) praying at "the wall"
photo by jewschool
For now it is not possible for Palestinians to work in Israel. A small minority of these workers were involved in lethal terrorist attacks on Israelis in Israel. It is too dangerous to have them in our midst. There were even incidents of Palestinian workers who had worked for years with a Jewish employer and one day came along and murdered them. (There was enormous pressure on these people to clear their names, as if by working in Israel they were "Zionist collaborators"!) The most effective means to stop the terrible attacks on us was to prevent all West Bank and Gaza Palestinians entering into Israel, including the building of a wall. Any country that would not take such actions would be failing in its basic duty to protect its own citizens.
I believe in my country, its right to defence, its weaknesses and capabilities. I make no apology for this, I am Jewish, Zionist Israeli. What else do you expect? We act in our own interests, we do not owe anyone anything. If not employing West Bank and Gaza Palestinians is good for Israel and bad for the Palestinians then it saddens me but that is that. It would be marvellous for the Greek economy if Greeks had freedom of employment in America. Do you think the Americans are going to allow this?
Israel is not responsible for the Palestinian economy. Years of corruption and waste, a total lack of planning and the continued dependence on the outside (including on Israel) and the pariah the Hamas Government became in the world has not given the Palestinian economy a chance. Israel blocked taxes ever since Hamas won the elections but since Fatah took over in the West Bank money will/has been paid to them. I do not understand why we give money to the Palestinian Authority? I think that the Palestinians should pay us for the financial damage the terrorist attacks caused. Maria, there is a war going on. The Palestinians (even Fatah) are our enemies. Who ever heard of a country paying money to its own enemy, this is just crazy. Stupidly we paid millions to the Palestinians and even gave them guns and ammunition. This must stop. Some believe that Fatah is OK and the real enemy is Hamas and the other extremists, I do not think so. The same guns we gave the Palestinians have been used against us. We were very naive.
One day the Palestinians will grow up.
- They will understand that the Jews in the region are not going back to Poland and Morocco. We are here to stay, Israel is a fact. 6 million people are not going to find homes elsewhere!
- They will realize that the use of violence as their main means of achieving political gains has caused them enormous suffering.
- Their consistent refusal to compromise territorially is short sighted. In 1937 they rejected the Peel Commission, in 1947 they rejected the UN partition plan and in 2000 the Palestinians rejected the Wye Agreement.
- They will set up a viable, independent Palestinian state that does real work for its own people. That state will respect the human rights of its own citizens, and will of course really recognize Israel as a fact.
That article from www.challenge-mag.com is excellent. I have not read such a good analysis of events - especially on the difference between the two Intifadas - as is written there. Challenge is going to join my favourite on-line reading with electronicintifada.net and www.bitterlemons.org. I already subscribe to www.haaretz.co.il (to the Hebrew paper edition) and I think I will get one to www.acheret.co.il.
I just read an excellent criticism of Israel military policy at www.acheret.co.il, by Yair Sheleg (of Haaretz). This is a quote:
This - in my view - summarizes all what is wrong with our treatment of Palestinian violence. Not just air force attacks on terrorist leaders but also all those stupid roadblocks. Daily Palestinian men are humiliated and annoyed by Israeli soldiers (girls), this is just a breeding ground for terror."Deterrence does not sufficiently address the issue because of its inherent paradoxical nature: When Israel is victorious, it succeeds in deterring its enemies for a while; however, Israeli victories further motivate the losing side to launch new rounds of hostilities. Deterrence always includes frightening the other side. While a frightened rival may hesitate to launch a new attack, the sense of humiliation that accompanies the fear further inflames the desire for revenge and awakens the drive to amass even greater strength in order to win the next round".
Your lecturer sounds like a real idiot. You know in the world we have an image of Swedes as very liberal and egalitarian! Academics are supposed to be thinking people. What is this professor? Do you find it difficult to study from a man like that or can you separate the man from the subject he is teaching? What can you do about it? Sometimes the best is to do nothing, because to make a fuss will draw attention to the stupidity and it is best to ignore it (this works very well with children).
What is "shmolt" coffee?
I was looking at your map on your flickr profile page you have travelled a lot. A very lot. You have bben right through South America. Have you been to Burma? I am very surprised. What were you doing there? How did you like the regime there? In my mind there are only a few really evil countries in the world: North Korea, China and Burma. Years ago I read Aung San Suu Kyi's biography she is the greatest.
S a u l
(your Israeli friend)
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