right now!
gaza is burning.
palestine is dividning just as US planed it.
and your letter is burning in my inbox.
:)
M
18 June 2007
14 June 2007
Saul > Maria: This is part 2. Wow I have written so much. Too much. Hope you can read it all.
allå Maria,
This is part 2. Wow I have written so much. Too much. Hope you can read it all.
Too often Israel is held up to standards that no other country is held to: double standards. It is wrong to ask of Israel behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation. There are more than a few in what you write.
Here we have one example. So what if foreign workers replaced the West Bank and Gaza Palestinian workers. Yes there are foreign workers in Israel. All wealthy countries have foreign workers. First the West Bank and Gaza Palestinians worked here and now, because of the terrorism, of a small minority, it is not possible for them to work in Israel any more. Now the foreign workers come from Romania, China, Thailand and elsewhere. You can see the same all over Europe and in all wealthy countries. Why pick on Israel about this? Go and ask the Saudis why they have Asians workers and the British why they have Polish!
I did write that the hate is mutual:
"You are right the root of the problem is hate: yes Israelis hate Arabs. The years of fear of wars and terror have caused this to happen. It is very sad. Israeli children have been brought up for decades fearing Arabs and hating them. Maybe Arab children are brought up the same way".
I really cannot add to that.
You are right, I said that it is difficult to understand the Palestinians. I think most Israelis (across the political spectrum) also do not understand the Palestinians. The 2nd Intifada was very important, we just do not get it. Here was peace, here was the beginning of Palestine and then we got violence. There are many cases of left-wing, liberal Israelis who supported peace who just gave up in 2000!
What you say about me, and my ideas on feminism, is very interesting. I think that you are clever to tie the two together. Of course Israeli Palestinians study Zionist history and Hebrew. In all countries the minorities have to study and accept the cultural norms of the majority. In my history books in the UK when I was in school the knights and the crusaders were good and honourable and Christian. In reality they were a murderous rabble and Jews were massacred by them all across Europe and in Israel. The Jews were on the side of the "infidel" Arabs!
"Bedouin children and typical houses in Tel Sheva"
Have you read what is happening in the Palestinian areas now? If that is what the leaders and the militias do to their own people, what will they do to us one day? Call it paranoia if you like, just read what the Hamas are doing to the PLO and vice versa. These are the same Palestinians who kill their own daughters and sisters for immodesty. Are you a feminist? Someone has to do something to stop Arab men killing their own daughters and sisters. I do not care if you call me racist. In situations like this we put niceties aside, we need to speak clearly. Israeli liberals (people like me) have made crazy statements like "if only we would give them the occupied territories, there will be peace". You tell me if this is correct! Israel has signed dozens of peace treaties, invited Arab leaders again and again to talks, it is even in our Declaration of Independence. The peace treaties do not work. We are still ostracised, and there is no peace. My conclusion is that there will never be peace until the Arabs see the last Jew leaving the Middle East. I am against peace treaties, they do not work, we need to get ourselves to trust each other, what the Americans call "confidence building measures".
What do you mean about the Druse in the Golan paying taxes for rainwater they collect? Never heard of this.
Rabbis do not decide about death in Israel. The secular parliament decided that marriage and divorce (personal law) of Jews would be in the hands of the Rabbinical Courts. Only the actual divorce is rabbinical, the secular Family Courts decide everything else: child custody, alimony etc. The JNF owns most land in Israel. The JNF is not allowed to discriminate against non-Jews. An Arab cannot be denied residency anywhere in Israel, even in closed Jewish settlements set up by the JNF. To compare us to Iran is hilarious. Even the draft (and relatively liberal) Palestinian constitution says that Palestine shall be a Muslim country ruled by Sharia.
Israeli Jewish boy planting trees in Israel on Arbour Day (Tubeshevat)
Israel is a Jewish State so of course the interests of Jews – the majority – come first. The interests of the minorities are respected and upheld by law. This is the double standard again. It is that same in France and Greece and everywhere, you care for your own nationals. In Israel it is a little more complicated I admit; Israel is the Jewish State but Israeli Arabs have full rights. Hebrew and Judaism and Zionism are first, other culture second. It is the same with Welsh culture in the UK, Latino culture in USA etc.
I do not understand what happened to you when you came to Palestine/Israel. Did you come with preconceived notions? After all you came to work in the West Bank. Did you have a bad attitude at the border: Palestinian flags or something like that? There are thousands upon thousands of tourists who come to Israel every year of all colours and religions and they can tell you a different story. Why do black Jewish Ethiopians fit into Israeli society and why did your (blond?) Swedish friends not get picked on? I do not know. Yes there is racial screening at Israeli security checks and this is because 99% of all terrorists are Arab/Palestinian/Muslim. This is a sad racial fact, and utilizing it just might save someone's life.
Forget the "European Jews on the top", it is old fashioned, dead and buried. There may be rivalry between different ethnic groups of Jews in Israel. So what! Again it is something that happens all across the world (double standards). Ask blacks in Sweden, Bedouin in Kuwait, Africans in Sudan the list goes one. Does it help you that one of my bosses is not a European Jew and the head of my department is also not. My wife is also not! The only ones who go on about the "European Jews on the top" are cheap Israeli politicians out to make a noise in hope of gaining popularity, and that stupid trick usually does not work. (Although I must admit that Israel's leading geographer, OrenYitachel, I mentioned him to you, has written a lot about this, and has pointed out how society here works in favour of European Jews.)
Thank you very much for the compliment: "Saul you write very polite and in an open way. I wonder if you might be a teacher?" and even more thank you that you think my son is adorable!!! My wife will not let me photograph her and she is so beautiful. She is very annoying; she keeps trying to get out of it. She is not really black, actually no one is black or white or yellow, some of us are dark brown or pinkish white and most are something in between.
I am a lawyer. For 4 years I work for a trade union representing workers. Then I left and worked for the police (as a prosecutor) for a year but hated it. After a year in the police I became self-employed and did some labour law, I represented all sorts including lots of foreign workers. But mostly, for 7 years, I did criminal law. I received lots of work from the Public Defender's Office. I dealt withall sorts of nasty cases: my clients were of lots of different nationalities and background, people really on the outside of society. Last year I closed my office and joined a firm of patent agents. I did the degree in management for fun, at the time I wantedto be a civil servant, but I never found a job I wanted. Maybe the next move for me will be to work for a charity or human rights organization - when I have paid the mortgage! I am 40, how old are you? Why do you want to move to Buenos Aires?
s a u l
This is part 2. Wow I have written so much. Too much. Hope you can read it all.
Too often Israel is held up to standards that no other country is held to: double standards. It is wrong to ask of Israel behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation. There are more than a few in what you write.
Here we have one example. So what if foreign workers replaced the West Bank and Gaza Palestinian workers. Yes there are foreign workers in Israel. All wealthy countries have foreign workers. First the West Bank and Gaza Palestinians worked here and now, because of the terrorism, of a small minority, it is not possible for them to work in Israel any more. Now the foreign workers come from Romania, China, Thailand and elsewhere. You can see the same all over Europe and in all wealthy countries. Why pick on Israel about this? Go and ask the Saudis why they have Asians workers and the British why they have Polish!
I did write that the hate is mutual:
"You are right the root of the problem is hate: yes Israelis hate Arabs. The years of fear of wars and terror have caused this to happen. It is very sad. Israeli children have been brought up for decades fearing Arabs and hating them. Maybe Arab children are brought up the same way".
I really cannot add to that.
You are right, I said that it is difficult to understand the Palestinians. I think most Israelis (across the political spectrum) also do not understand the Palestinians. The 2nd Intifada was very important, we just do not get it. Here was peace, here was the beginning of Palestine and then we got violence. There are many cases of left-wing, liberal Israelis who supported peace who just gave up in 2000!
What you say about me, and my ideas on feminism, is very interesting. I think that you are clever to tie the two together. Of course Israeli Palestinians study Zionist history and Hebrew. In all countries the minorities have to study and accept the cultural norms of the majority. In my history books in the UK when I was in school the knights and the crusaders were good and honourable and Christian. In reality they were a murderous rabble and Jews were massacred by them all across Europe and in Israel. The Jews were on the side of the "infidel" Arabs!
"Bedouin children and typical houses in Tel Sheva"
Have you read what is happening in the Palestinian areas now? If that is what the leaders and the militias do to their own people, what will they do to us one day? Call it paranoia if you like, just read what the Hamas are doing to the PLO and vice versa. These are the same Palestinians who kill their own daughters and sisters for immodesty. Are you a feminist? Someone has to do something to stop Arab men killing their own daughters and sisters. I do not care if you call me racist. In situations like this we put niceties aside, we need to speak clearly. Israeli liberals (people like me) have made crazy statements like "if only we would give them the occupied territories, there will be peace". You tell me if this is correct! Israel has signed dozens of peace treaties, invited Arab leaders again and again to talks, it is even in our Declaration of Independence. The peace treaties do not work. We are still ostracised, and there is no peace. My conclusion is that there will never be peace until the Arabs see the last Jew leaving the Middle East. I am against peace treaties, they do not work, we need to get ourselves to trust each other, what the Americans call "confidence building measures".
What do you mean about the Druse in the Golan paying taxes for rainwater they collect? Never heard of this.
Rabbis do not decide about death in Israel. The secular parliament decided that marriage and divorce (personal law) of Jews would be in the hands of the Rabbinical Courts. Only the actual divorce is rabbinical, the secular Family Courts decide everything else: child custody, alimony etc. The JNF owns most land in Israel. The JNF is not allowed to discriminate against non-Jews. An Arab cannot be denied residency anywhere in Israel, even in closed Jewish settlements set up by the JNF. To compare us to Iran is hilarious. Even the draft (and relatively liberal) Palestinian constitution says that Palestine shall be a Muslim country ruled by Sharia.
Israeli Jewish boy planting trees in Israel on Arbour Day (Tubeshevat)
Israel is a Jewish State so of course the interests of Jews – the majority – come first. The interests of the minorities are respected and upheld by law. This is the double standard again. It is that same in France and Greece and everywhere, you care for your own nationals. In Israel it is a little more complicated I admit; Israel is the Jewish State but Israeli Arabs have full rights. Hebrew and Judaism and Zionism are first, other culture second. It is the same with Welsh culture in the UK, Latino culture in USA etc.
I do not understand what happened to you when you came to Palestine/Israel. Did you come with preconceived notions? After all you came to work in the West Bank. Did you have a bad attitude at the border: Palestinian flags or something like that? There are thousands upon thousands of tourists who come to Israel every year of all colours and religions and they can tell you a different story. Why do black Jewish Ethiopians fit into Israeli society and why did your (blond?) Swedish friends not get picked on? I do not know. Yes there is racial screening at Israeli security checks and this is because 99% of all terrorists are Arab/Palestinian/Muslim. This is a sad racial fact, and utilizing it just might save someone's life.
Forget the "European Jews on the top", it is old fashioned, dead and buried. There may be rivalry between different ethnic groups of Jews in Israel. So what! Again it is something that happens all across the world (double standards). Ask blacks in Sweden, Bedouin in Kuwait, Africans in Sudan the list goes one. Does it help you that one of my bosses is not a European Jew and the head of my department is also not. My wife is also not! The only ones who go on about the "European Jews on the top" are cheap Israeli politicians out to make a noise in hope of gaining popularity, and that stupid trick usually does not work. (Although I must admit that Israel's leading geographer, OrenYitachel, I mentioned him to you, has written a lot about this, and has pointed out how society here works in favour of European Jews.)
Thank you very much for the compliment: "Saul you write very polite and in an open way. I wonder if you might be a teacher?" and even more thank you that you think my son is adorable!!! My wife will not let me photograph her and she is so beautiful. She is very annoying; she keeps trying to get out of it. She is not really black, actually no one is black or white or yellow, some of us are dark brown or pinkish white and most are something in between.
I am a lawyer. For 4 years I work for a trade union representing workers. Then I left and worked for the police (as a prosecutor) for a year but hated it. After a year in the police I became self-employed and did some labour law, I represented all sorts including lots of foreign workers. But mostly, for 7 years, I did criminal law. I received lots of work from the Public Defender's Office. I dealt withall sorts of nasty cases: my clients were of lots of different nationalities and background, people really on the outside of society. Last year I closed my office and joined a firm of patent agents. I did the degree in management for fun, at the time I wantedto be a civil servant, but I never found a job I wanted. Maybe the next move for me will be to work for a charity or human rights organization - when I have paid the mortgage! I am 40, how old are you? Why do you want to move to Buenos Aires?
s a u l
13 June 2007
Maria > Saul: I think that it´s more than 10% than 2%. these surveys are very
I think that it´s more than 10% than 2%. these surveys are very intresting because the question asked is so sensiative. according to one survey in sweden 40% of the men have had a same sex relation. but that fenomen incluedes so much more than just men having sex with men. sexuality is mostly like liquid...
saul, i am just pulling your leg a bit in a provocative way. you as well as I know that there is a survey for every question but I thought is was very funny that you choose to refer to these countries and at the same time beeing insulted by me pointing out "eurocentrism" norms... :)
yeees, i do have gmail! let me mail you! chating sounds nice. your firm really looks like a very "strict" one. here goes my predjudice. i think you should compensate the stiffness that you endure 8 hours a day by plunging your reflections and experience into your blogg! you surly have made the most of flickr. I like that.
now I have another exam to write. in rethoric. thinking of maybe attaching our conversations as a practical example...
:)
saul, i am just pulling your leg a bit in a provocative way. you as well as I know that there is a survey for every question but I thought is was very funny that you choose to refer to these countries and at the same time beeing insulted by me pointing out "eurocentrism" norms... :)
yeees, i do have gmail! let me mail you! chating sounds nice. your firm really looks like a very "strict" one. here goes my predjudice. i think you should compensate the stiffness that you endure 8 hours a day by plunging your reflections and experience into your blogg! you surly have made the most of flickr. I like that.
now I have another exam to write. in rethoric. thinking of maybe attaching our conversations as a practical example...
:)
Saul > Maria: I chose USA, UK and France because a big survey
I chose USA, UK and France because a big survey was conducted in these countries. The result was that 2% of women are gay and 3% of men. Many still think that the 10% statistic is more accurate. What do you think?
Saul
Saul
Maria > Saul: just realized that in defending yourself from my "instult" you narrowed
good morning saul,
just realized that in defending yourself from my "instult" you narrowed down the world into three countries which was and are the worst colonialist countries ever around and from were much of the "whitness" is beeing reproduced.
"Between 90 and 98% of women in USA, France and UK are hetro"
that was exactly my point. by questioning others one has to be aware of the norms that influence yourself but also reduces the world and others.
off to school.
have nice day!
: maria
just realized that in defending yourself from my "instult" you narrowed down the world into three countries which was and are the worst colonialist countries ever around and from were much of the "whitness" is beeing reproduced.
"Between 90 and 98% of women in USA, France and UK are hetro"
that was exactly my point. by questioning others one has to be aware of the norms that influence yourself but also reduces the world and others.
off to school.
have nice day!
: maria
Maria > Saul: some names are ugly some are nicer.t he Oxford Dictionary´s definition on colonialism fits Israel
hi saul,
some names are ugly some are nicer.t he Oxford Dictionary´s definition on colonialism fits Israel to the word.
I don´t really get it. as a lawyer you know that facts and emtions dont really mix. last of all together with ideology. by saying that the "west bank" is not another country and beyond Isreali borders you know something I don´t know and haven´t been able to find anywhere. what facts do you base that claim on? and how can it be your country? your arguments are absurd to follow. will you soon also claim that the "arabs" immigrated into "your country" looking for work? Maybe a word for Ahad haAm who knew the situation 100 years ago:
"From abroad, we are accustomed to believe that Eretz Israel is presently almost totally desolated, an uncultivated desert, an that anyone wishing to buy land there can come and buy all he wants. But in truth this is not so. In the entire land, it is hard to find a tillable land that is not already tilled; only sandy fields and stony hills, suitable at best for planting trees or wine and, even that, after considerable work and expense in clearing and preparing them”
just prior to the 1948 war, ews owned under 7% of palestine’s land, and to increase their share after the war, they passed the “absentees’ law” which dispossessed the palestinian majority land owners who later became “absent”. What is even more tragic was the passage of an oxymoron law, called “present absentees’ law,” which dispossessed the palestinian-israeli citizens who became internal refugees in Israel. it is worth noting that the internal Jewish refugees were not dispossessed as a result of this racist law.
Again clearly this is not all your country by history or by facts. but by european colonial ideology. that is zionism and zionism was as you know until 1991 labeled as a racist organtisation. but with a lable or not zionism as a system is either is inherently racist or at least fosters racism. "A racist ideology need not always manifest itself as such, and, if the circumstances are right, it need not always actually practice racism to maintain itself."
antiisgood.wordpress.com israel
there is no progress in always defining israel´s policies with "you deny our right to exist". i am actually sick and tired of that "slogan" because it polarises the discussion instead of problemaise it. colonialism is one thing. existing is another. why do Israel choose to exist through colonialism? why can´t israel stay behind it´s boarders? oh, that´s right the dream/vison of Erezt where all land is just Israeli. but that also would include some parts of saudi and a river in libanon. is that next?
yes, jews have lived in palestine for centurys but were they living alone? well Ahad haAm didn´t experienced it not to be so, on the contrary. please, could you direct me to the information about your statement about "the sovereign Jewish state here years ago". I never ever heard about that. rather all I have read about is the english and the french colonialism parting up palestine and libanon and the way the english "handed over" their piece of land to UN (at that time). when the palestine problem was created by the english in 1917, more than 92% of the population of palestine were Arabs and there were at that time no more than 56,000 Jews in Palestine.
what the Israeli palestinians are doing in their native country? guess they are surviving as they are subjected to israeli laws that are different than the laws governing the 4.5 million Israeli Jews. Israeli-Palestinian citizens live almost in segregated communities (or ghettos) because development is strictly limited outside their village. they are the natives just like the indians in US and the blacks in south africa. a feature they share with some jews, durse, bediuns.
what the swedes are doing in sweden? living, having sex and right now sunbathing. to be a swed you dont have to claim a relgion you do as in every other country except of Israel, you get nationalized by applying a citizenship at a goverment institution. and yes, swedes are also colonialists as we have pushed out the natives and almost succesfully broken their fabric.
www.haaretz.com article
please read this great artical by Bradley Burston,
"The Palestinian arguments against recognizing Israel are many, and often well-articulated. Palestinians believe that they should not be made to pay the price of the Holocaust, and they are right. Palestinians believe that they have been subjugated, mistreated, and denied self-determination, and they are right."
www.haaretz.com article
the last palestinas I meet were not talking about "removing" all jews or "throwing them into the sea" but were talking about beeing able to survive. it´s Israel that is pushing them out from their land so I find there statements very very human and basic. they too want to live with water, business, schools, roads, cafeeshops, olive plantations aso.
believe me, i am very aware of the "gap" between the pros and cons regarding the conflict. some of my family are zionist so its also close by ( they however only supports israel because they want jesus to come back and they believe that the jews are the choosen one that can not do wrong). i dont agree what you say as you have noticed. i even in some cases get sad when you write "it´s our land" and justify colonialism as your existance. but i will always respect your view, your experience and your right to express it. you can call me onesided which is another rethoric tactic used in this conflic but ignorant? of what? i however find it astouning that the pro-Israel side can have such a double moral when it comes to its suffering that is copyrighted and has not limits. it´s only Israel security, future, right to exist, right to live normal lives, right to travel freely, right to visit Ein Gedi, right to the rain water, right to the truth, right over the Other... but never can those claims be reversed upon israel. that is onesided paradox.
so I never get supprised by the resentless repeating of slogans like "arabs hate jews", "arabs are terrorist", "they have missed every oppertunity to create their state", "israel is for peace", "zionism is good", "israel is the only democratic country in the region"... as they are more pr than facts.
I have never said that jewishness is evil or bad so that has to stand for you. israel is created on the injustice of what happend in europe during the 2ww and still exists. israel has expanded by ethinical cleansing and war and exists. israel is maintaing an other people and land under occupation and still exists. what israel is in my eyes is worse than south africa. I myself have personal experinces of that which streches 14 years. I have also read books (problerbly not the same as you have) and atended seminares regarding the conflict.
”If Palestinians were black, Israel would be a pariah state subject to economic sanctions led by the United States." (London Observer, 2002 )
zionism for me is the start of it all. by having the kibbutz and laws that made it illegal to sell land to arabs. energizing terrorist organistions like the stern gang with others and then be an active part in the birth of Israel in laws and through organisations and in schoolbooks. zionism is evil as long as you are not jewish.
www.countercurrents.org pa-christison
thomas? aha anomalous. ofcourse you don´t like him and ofcourse I love him. don´t actually know him but maybe I should mail him. i just recently found him and added him to my contact list. you however got hold of me first.
what I agree with you addtionally are following:
how do you like your camera? i got a canon 5 d and I totally love it. shit expensive and awesome but a bit to big. i loved it when I had a smaller camera that I could carry along easier...
looking forward to part 2.
lala tov.
maria
some names are ugly some are nicer.t he Oxford Dictionary´s definition on colonialism fits Israel to the word.
I don´t really get it. as a lawyer you know that facts and emtions dont really mix. last of all together with ideology. by saying that the "west bank" is not another country and beyond Isreali borders you know something I don´t know and haven´t been able to find anywhere. what facts do you base that claim on? and how can it be your country? your arguments are absurd to follow. will you soon also claim that the "arabs" immigrated into "your country" looking for work? Maybe a word for Ahad haAm who knew the situation 100 years ago:
"From abroad, we are accustomed to believe that Eretz Israel is presently almost totally desolated, an uncultivated desert, an that anyone wishing to buy land there can come and buy all he wants. But in truth this is not so. In the entire land, it is hard to find a tillable land that is not already tilled; only sandy fields and stony hills, suitable at best for planting trees or wine and, even that, after considerable work and expense in clearing and preparing them”
just prior to the 1948 war, ews owned under 7% of palestine’s land, and to increase their share after the war, they passed the “absentees’ law” which dispossessed the palestinian majority land owners who later became “absent”. What is even more tragic was the passage of an oxymoron law, called “present absentees’ law,” which dispossessed the palestinian-israeli citizens who became internal refugees in Israel. it is worth noting that the internal Jewish refugees were not dispossessed as a result of this racist law.
Again clearly this is not all your country by history or by facts. but by european colonial ideology. that is zionism and zionism was as you know until 1991 labeled as a racist organtisation. but with a lable or not zionism as a system is either is inherently racist or at least fosters racism. "A racist ideology need not always manifest itself as such, and, if the circumstances are right, it need not always actually practice racism to maintain itself."
antiisgood.wordpress.com israel
there is no progress in always defining israel´s policies with "you deny our right to exist". i am actually sick and tired of that "slogan" because it polarises the discussion instead of problemaise it. colonialism is one thing. existing is another. why do Israel choose to exist through colonialism? why can´t israel stay behind it´s boarders? oh, that´s right the dream/vison of Erezt where all land is just Israeli. but that also would include some parts of saudi and a river in libanon. is that next?
yes, jews have lived in palestine for centurys but were they living alone? well Ahad haAm didn´t experienced it not to be so, on the contrary. please, could you direct me to the information about your statement about "the sovereign Jewish state here years ago". I never ever heard about that. rather all I have read about is the english and the french colonialism parting up palestine and libanon and the way the english "handed over" their piece of land to UN (at that time). when the palestine problem was created by the english in 1917, more than 92% of the population of palestine were Arabs and there were at that time no more than 56,000 Jews in Palestine.
what the Israeli palestinians are doing in their native country? guess they are surviving as they are subjected to israeli laws that are different than the laws governing the 4.5 million Israeli Jews. Israeli-Palestinian citizens live almost in segregated communities (or ghettos) because development is strictly limited outside their village. they are the natives just like the indians in US and the blacks in south africa. a feature they share with some jews, durse, bediuns.
what the swedes are doing in sweden? living, having sex and right now sunbathing. to be a swed you dont have to claim a relgion you do as in every other country except of Israel, you get nationalized by applying a citizenship at a goverment institution. and yes, swedes are also colonialists as we have pushed out the natives and almost succesfully broken their fabric.
www.haaretz.com article
please read this great artical by Bradley Burston,
"The Palestinian arguments against recognizing Israel are many, and often well-articulated. Palestinians believe that they should not be made to pay the price of the Holocaust, and they are right. Palestinians believe that they have been subjugated, mistreated, and denied self-determination, and they are right."
www.haaretz.com article
the last palestinas I meet were not talking about "removing" all jews or "throwing them into the sea" but were talking about beeing able to survive. it´s Israel that is pushing them out from their land so I find there statements very very human and basic. they too want to live with water, business, schools, roads, cafeeshops, olive plantations aso.
- israels withdrawel from sinan penisula also gave Israel what it needed more, peace with the stronges neigbour and a border.
- the west bank is a mess. withdrawing from parts of it has nothing to do with peace rather demography. got some really horrid quatos from Isreali academics on that if you want.
- all lebanese territory? how about the shaba farms? what were Israel doing there at all?
- the peace treaty with jordan again turned out to be a greater benefit for Israel. You got your second border and peace. futher more israel secured some of it´s water need.
believe me, i am very aware of the "gap" between the pros and cons regarding the conflict. some of my family are zionist so its also close by ( they however only supports israel because they want jesus to come back and they believe that the jews are the choosen one that can not do wrong). i dont agree what you say as you have noticed. i even in some cases get sad when you write "it´s our land" and justify colonialism as your existance. but i will always respect your view, your experience and your right to express it. you can call me onesided which is another rethoric tactic used in this conflic but ignorant? of what? i however find it astouning that the pro-Israel side can have such a double moral when it comes to its suffering that is copyrighted and has not limits. it´s only Israel security, future, right to exist, right to live normal lives, right to travel freely, right to visit Ein Gedi, right to the rain water, right to the truth, right over the Other... but never can those claims be reversed upon israel. that is onesided paradox.
so I never get supprised by the resentless repeating of slogans like "arabs hate jews", "arabs are terrorist", "they have missed every oppertunity to create their state", "israel is for peace", "zionism is good", "israel is the only democratic country in the region"... as they are more pr than facts.
I have never said that jewishness is evil or bad so that has to stand for you. israel is created on the injustice of what happend in europe during the 2ww and still exists. israel has expanded by ethinical cleansing and war and exists. israel is maintaing an other people and land under occupation and still exists. what israel is in my eyes is worse than south africa. I myself have personal experinces of that which streches 14 years. I have also read books (problerbly not the same as you have) and atended seminares regarding the conflict.
”If Palestinians were black, Israel would be a pariah state subject to economic sanctions led by the United States." (London Observer, 2002 )
zionism for me is the start of it all. by having the kibbutz and laws that made it illegal to sell land to arabs. energizing terrorist organistions like the stern gang with others and then be an active part in the birth of Israel in laws and through organisations and in schoolbooks. zionism is evil as long as you are not jewish.
www.countercurrents.org pa-christison
thomas? aha anomalous. ofcourse you don´t like him and ofcourse I love him. don´t actually know him but maybe I should mail him. i just recently found him and added him to my contact list. you however got hold of me first.
what I agree with you addtionally are following:
- that israel should exist
- that not all israelis are racist or hate arabs or want to kill them all
- that the situation is very complex
- that peace and security is vital
how do you like your camera? i got a canon 5 d and I totally love it. shit expensive and awesome but a bit to big. i loved it when I had a smaller camera that I could carry along easier...
looking forward to part 2.
lala tov.
maria
12 June 2007
Saul > Maria: Colonialism according to the Oxford Dictionary
Colonialism according to the Oxford Dictionary and Wikipedia:
To describe us as colonialists is to deny our right to be here. For most Palestinians we are colonialists anywhere and everywhere in Israel. For the Palestinians all of Israel is theirs and their aim is the removal of Jews from the area.
Please note that most Israelis, from a wide political spectrum, including right wing parties, are pragmatic and willing to compromise on the territory in exchange for peace (or at least quiet). I may believe that Nablus and Hevron are ours, but for many reasons I do not want Israeli soldiers there. About 98% of the territories that were "occupied" by Israel are now longer "occupied" -
I do not want or expect you to agree with me, or even understand what I have written. But, please understand that the difference of opinion between Israelis and Palestinians. Maybe it so great that there will never be peace. But the first step is to appreciate the enormous gap between us. I am astounded when talking to people like you. The one-sidedness is awful, very unhelpful and very often ignorant. Even amongst Jews and Arabs the spectrum of opinion is wide and there is an understanding of the differences. Then I meet people like you or (Thomas (anomalous)) and it is as if Israel and Jewish and Zionism is the ultimate evil. Please note that there are many things that I agree with you on: the need for Palestinian independence and the suffering of the Palestinian people caused by Israel. What do you agree with me on?
That was only part one. Part two is to follow!
S a u l
"The practice of acquiring control over another country, occupying it with settlers, and exploiting it economically".Israel is not colonialist. The West Bank is not "another country", it is not "beyond [Israel's] borders". We are not controlling another country. In all of history there never was an Arab country called Palestine or any other country in Israel. Even the Arab countries, Jordan and Egypt that occupied the West Bank and Gaza from 1948 to 1967 did not make an Arab country (Palestine) in these territories. It is our country, all of Israel is ours, at least from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea: Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, Negev, the whole country. That is Zionism. Jews have lived in Israel for centuries. There was a sovereign Jewish state here years ago. Jews in the West Bank are living in their own country not colonizing some foreign place. What are the Israeli Palestinians doing? Colonizing Israel?! What are the Swedes doing in Sweden?
"Colonialism is the extension of a nation's sovereignty over territory beyond its borders by the establishment of either settler colonies or administrative dependencies in which indigenous populations are directly ruled or displaced."
To describe us as colonialists is to deny our right to be here. For most Palestinians we are colonialists anywhere and everywhere in Israel. For the Palestinians all of Israel is theirs and their aim is the removal of Jews from the area.
Please note that most Israelis, from a wide political spectrum, including right wing parties, are pragmatic and willing to compromise on the territory in exchange for peace (or at least quiet). I may believe that Nablus and Hevron are ours, but for many reasons I do not want Israeli soldiers there. About 98% of the territories that were "occupied" by Israel are now longer "occupied" -
- Israel withdrew from the Sinai Peninsula under a peace treaty with Egypt.
- Israel withdrew from parts of the West Bank under the Oslo Accords including major cities, although some places are once again under "occupation" because of anti-Israel terrorist activity originating from there and pending further peace treaties.
- Israel withdrew unilaterally from all Lebanese territory.
- Israel withdrew unilaterally from the Gaza Strip.
- Israel withdrew from other parts of the West Bank under the peace treaty with Jordan.
I do not want or expect you to agree with me, or even understand what I have written. But, please understand that the difference of opinion between Israelis and Palestinians. Maybe it so great that there will never be peace. But the first step is to appreciate the enormous gap between us. I am astounded when talking to people like you. The one-sidedness is awful, very unhelpful and very often ignorant. Even amongst Jews and Arabs the spectrum of opinion is wide and there is an understanding of the differences. Then I meet people like you or (Thomas (anomalous)) and it is as if Israel and Jewish and Zionism is the ultimate evil. Please note that there are many things that I agree with you on: the need for Palestinian independence and the suffering of the Palestinian people caused by Israel. What do you agree with me on?
That was only part one. Part two is to follow!
S a u l
Maria > Saul: wait, i would never intensionally insult you or anyone else. what i meant
selam saul,
wait, i would never intensionally insult you or anyone else. what i meant by writing "watch out for the norms of patrichal, whitness and eurocentrism" is the way they work.
beeing white is never a bad thing. that´s the thing. but I am not talking about your skin colour - that would be racism but rather of whitness as an ideology.
"Major areas of research include the nature of white identity and of white privilege, the historical process by which a white racial identity was created, the relation of culture to white identity, and possible processes of social change as they affect white identity"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiteness_studies
I would and could never tell if you are a patriarchal but since we all live in a patriarchal world that´s the norms and structures I wanted to point out. nothing personally.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemonic_masculinity
why should I have to mention if I have a girlfriend? aha, because the norms tell you that such a choice is not assumable if not mentioned or marked? that is hetrosexuality and patriarchal norms in action. your numbers (98%!!?) still envolves a lot of individuals couldn´t I be one of them? (I cant be bothered to problematises the numbers since it´s just that numbers. there are so many numbers but never more than individuals). and yes, it´s ok to assume otherwise our life and world would be to complicated to grasp and navigate within...
but my question here is rather, why did you feel so insulted? in our whole conversation we have been opting diffrent views and worlds against eachother and with them ideologies and rethoric. my wish was only to make you alert that one way of catagoring or assuming people right off is also a way that norms reproduce itselfs and with them the polarisation. (jews - arabs aso) I myself nowdays use variouse technics to find out the sex of the other if really have to know. so that´s why I wanted to know how you came to that conclution.
law and MA in public adminstration...
aha.. intresting. would I be fair to assume that you nowdays also work with in that field?
: maria
wait, i would never intensionally insult you or anyone else. what i meant by writing "watch out for the norms of patrichal, whitness and eurocentrism" is the way they work.
beeing white is never a bad thing. that´s the thing. but I am not talking about your skin colour - that would be racism but rather of whitness as an ideology.
"Major areas of research include the nature of white identity and of white privilege, the historical process by which a white racial identity was created, the relation of culture to white identity, and possible processes of social change as they affect white identity"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiteness_studies
I would and could never tell if you are a patriarchal but since we all live in a patriarchal world that´s the norms and structures I wanted to point out. nothing personally.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemonic_masculinity
why should I have to mention if I have a girlfriend? aha, because the norms tell you that such a choice is not assumable if not mentioned or marked? that is hetrosexuality and patriarchal norms in action. your numbers (98%!!?) still envolves a lot of individuals couldn´t I be one of them? (I cant be bothered to problematises the numbers since it´s just that numbers. there are so many numbers but never more than individuals). and yes, it´s ok to assume otherwise our life and world would be to complicated to grasp and navigate within...
but my question here is rather, why did you feel so insulted? in our whole conversation we have been opting diffrent views and worlds against eachother and with them ideologies and rethoric. my wish was only to make you alert that one way of catagoring or assuming people right off is also a way that norms reproduce itselfs and with them the polarisation. (jews - arabs aso) I myself nowdays use variouse technics to find out the sex of the other if really have to know. so that´s why I wanted to know how you came to that conclution.
law and MA in public adminstration...
aha.. intresting. would I be fair to assume that you nowdays also work with in that field?
: maria
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