Hi again,
Wow, I love that expression: strict rough love liberal. Am I that? What does it mean? Glorious! And I like your redefinition of my view, maybe I will put it into my group front page: "I am asking women to stop acting as they are living in a patriarchal society". What do you think? I do not want to annoy anyone, I already did that!
I apologize if I spoke to you as if you are ignorant. There is a lot of ignorance, knee-jerk reactions and stupidity regarding the whole Arab Israeli conflict. I should have known that you are better informed as you did some work in the West Bank. Even a tourist trip to Israel is usually enough to help get rid of most ignorance. Sorry.
All countries have international borders. We do not allow West Bank and Gaza Palestinians into Israel and there is a very good reason for that. Israeli and Jerusalem Arabs (they call themselves Palestinian) are allowed to go wherever they want. On the other hand, I cannot visit Arab areas of the West Bank or Gaza , these places are too dangerous for Jews. It is not dangerous for West Bank and Gaza Palestinians to visit Israel, but it is dangerous for us to have them here! A small minority of West Bank and Gaza Palestinians have committed terrorist acts against us in the days when movement was freer. This free movement has been stopped.
You are right that the casualties including deaths on the Palestinian side are much higher. Yes, the suffering of the Palestinian people is great.
I do not think that it is useful to describe Beer-Sheva as an ethnically cleansed city. What are you saying that we do not have a right to live here and in peace? It is not realistic to expect 200,000 to get up and to. Where will we go?
Our government and army have a duty to prevent us getting killed and the way they have done this is by building the wall. It is a wall that saves lives. It causes much suffering (not physical suffering) to the West Bank Palestinians. I am Israeli and I put Israel first: I do not want more Israelis to die because of Arab terrorism. The wall stops this.
Walls are terrible, I fully agree with you, if only we could live like Canada and USA, like Sweden and Norway with no fences. There is a conflict going on here, a dirty, violent conflict. The Palestinians use violence against us - maybe even justifiable violence (after all they say that we live in their country) - but please accept that we are justified in putting a stop to it. I am pleased our army is strong, sadly our politicians who should make peace are weak and short sighted.
I can show you documents - the Hamas charter for one - and statements by many Palestinian leaders that say that all of Palestine is theirs, that Jews have no right to live in Israel. When the Palestinians recognize the Jewish right to a state in Israel then there will be peace. By describing Israel as "colonialist" I think that you too are rejecting the Jewish right to Israel.
We, the Israelis, must also understand that the Palestinians have a right to a land of their own. It is very difficult for me to understand the Palestinians. There were many times that they could have utilized opportunities - in 1947, in the 1990s, and in 2006 - to achieve full statehood. Sadly they have consistently chosen to be violent against Israel, and against themselves (civil war), instead of concentrating on state building. This is not "rational and realistic" behaviour. The Palestinians are victims of their own stupid policies eg the constant use of violence. The Palestinians are victims of the Arab leaders who have done very little to help them. And also the Palestinians are victims of Israel's militaristic policies.
"Sderot Burning"
You are very wrong to say that Israel is a theocratic and ethnocratic state. Rabbis do not run Israel, we are a secular state. We have Muslim and Christian and Druze as judges, army officers (yes Israeli Arabs are officers in our army and police), politicians and more. There is terrible racism in Israel - just like in many places eg Sweden - do a google search and you will read of neo-Nazis and the discrimination of Muslims in your country. Did you read this www.thelocal.se/article? Israel might be ethnocratic but most or all countries are! Sweden is for the Swedish, Japan is for the Japanese etc. You can become Israeli if you are Jewish, were born in Israel (Israeli Arabs are citizens here) or naturalized (maybe because you have Israeli family). Just like in any other country.
The last election in the Palestinian Authority was won by a fundamentalist, anti-Jewish anti-Christian party whose primary political stance is the destruction of Israel and the rejection of negotiations (see Hamas Covenant 1988 and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Beliefs).
Maria, 99% of the terrorists (people that want to kill me and my family) are Arabs. Chinese and Romanian do not commit terrorists acts against Jews in Israel. So of course Arabs are the ones picked on for extra checks at the airport. If Brazil declares war on Israel - as the Hamas and Jihad and
Hezbollahhave - then Brazilians will get stopped at the airport too! The same thing happens in USA and UK because of 9/11 and 7/7; only Arabs and Muslims have a problem with the security there. In any case do not judge a whole nation by your 1/2 hour experience.
You are right the root of the problem is hate: yes Israelis hate Arabs. The years of fear of wars and terror have caused this to happen. It is very sad. Israeli children have been brought up for decades fearing Arabs and hating them. Maybe Arab children are brought up the same way. This fear and hatred must be eliminated to achieve real peace. It is our only chance. Peace treaties are just pieces of paper, the peoples must trust each other.
Where did you move to? This is very exciting. To have someone to love and to be able to live with them is a very beautiful thing. I wish you all the best in your new home. Say hi to your lover from me, tell him that you have a crazy friend in Israel.
S a u l
Wow, I love that expression: strict rough love liberal. Am I that? What does it mean? Glorious! And I like your redefinition of my view, maybe I will put it into my group front page: "I am asking women to stop acting as they are living in a patriarchal society". What do you think? I do not want to annoy anyone, I already did that!
I apologize if I spoke to you as if you are ignorant. There is a lot of ignorance, knee-jerk reactions and stupidity regarding the whole Arab Israeli conflict. I should have known that you are better informed as you did some work in the West Bank. Even a tourist trip to Israel is usually enough to help get rid of most ignorance. Sorry.
All countries have international borders. We do not allow West Bank and Gaza Palestinians into Israel and there is a very good reason for that. Israeli and Jerusalem Arabs (they call themselves Palestinian) are allowed to go wherever they want. On the other hand, I cannot visit Arab areas of the West Bank or Gaza , these places are too dangerous for Jews. It is not dangerous for West Bank and Gaza Palestinians to visit Israel, but it is dangerous for us to have them here! A small minority of West Bank and Gaza Palestinians have committed terrorist acts against us in the days when movement was freer. This free movement has been stopped.
You are right that the casualties including deaths on the Palestinian side are much higher. Yes, the suffering of the Palestinian people is great.
I do not think that it is useful to describe Beer-Sheva as an ethnically cleansed city. What are you saying that we do not have a right to live here and in peace? It is not realistic to expect 200,000 to get up and to. Where will we go?
Our government and army have a duty to prevent us getting killed and the way they have done this is by building the wall. It is a wall that saves lives. It causes much suffering (not physical suffering) to the West Bank Palestinians. I am Israeli and I put Israel first: I do not want more Israelis to die because of Arab terrorism. The wall stops this.
Walls are terrible, I fully agree with you, if only we could live like Canada and USA, like Sweden and Norway with no fences. There is a conflict going on here, a dirty, violent conflict. The Palestinians use violence against us - maybe even justifiable violence (after all they say that we live in their country) - but please accept that we are justified in putting a stop to it. I am pleased our army is strong, sadly our politicians who should make peace are weak and short sighted.
I can show you documents - the Hamas charter for one - and statements by many Palestinian leaders that say that all of Palestine is theirs, that Jews have no right to live in Israel. When the Palestinians recognize the Jewish right to a state in Israel then there will be peace. By describing Israel as "colonialist" I think that you too are rejecting the Jewish right to Israel.
We, the Israelis, must also understand that the Palestinians have a right to a land of their own. It is very difficult for me to understand the Palestinians. There were many times that they could have utilized opportunities - in 1947, in the 1990s, and in 2006 - to achieve full statehood. Sadly they have consistently chosen to be violent against Israel, and against themselves (civil war), instead of concentrating on state building. This is not "rational and realistic" behaviour. The Palestinians are victims of their own stupid policies eg the constant use of violence. The Palestinians are victims of the Arab leaders who have done very little to help them. And also the Palestinians are victims of Israel's militaristic policies.
"Sderot Burning"
You are very wrong to say that Israel is a theocratic and ethnocratic state. Rabbis do not run Israel, we are a secular state. We have Muslim and Christian and Druze as judges, army officers (yes Israeli Arabs are officers in our army and police), politicians and more. There is terrible racism in Israel - just like in many places eg Sweden - do a google search and you will read of neo-Nazis and the discrimination of Muslims in your country. Did you read this www.thelocal.se/article? Israel might be ethnocratic but most or all countries are! Sweden is for the Swedish, Japan is for the Japanese etc. You can become Israeli if you are Jewish, were born in Israel (Israeli Arabs are citizens here) or naturalized (maybe because you have Israeli family). Just like in any other country.
The last election in the Palestinian Authority was won by a fundamentalist, anti-Jewish anti-Christian party whose primary political stance is the destruction of Israel and the rejection of negotiations (see Hamas Covenant 1988 and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Beliefs).
Maria, 99% of the terrorists (people that want to kill me and my family) are Arabs. Chinese and Romanian do not commit terrorists acts against Jews in Israel. So of course Arabs are the ones picked on for extra checks at the airport. If Brazil declares war on Israel - as the Hamas and Jihad and
Hezbollahhave - then Brazilians will get stopped at the airport too! The same thing happens in USA and UK because of 9/11 and 7/7; only Arabs and Muslims have a problem with the security there. In any case do not judge a whole nation by your 1/2 hour experience.
You are right the root of the problem is hate: yes Israelis hate Arabs. The years of fear of wars and terror have caused this to happen. It is very sad. Israeli children have been brought up for decades fearing Arabs and hating them. Maybe Arab children are brought up the same way. This fear and hatred must be eliminated to achieve real peace. It is our only chance. Peace treaties are just pieces of paper, the peoples must trust each other.
Where did you move to? This is very exciting. To have someone to love and to be able to live with them is a very beautiful thing. I wish you all the best in your new home. Say hi to your lover from me, tell him that you have a crazy friend in Israel.
S a u l
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