Saaaaaul, noo problem! Those kind of mispreceptions happends - it only make you more human! I thought first that I might have "picked" the wrong country since I did the map in a hurry. :) Actually in feb. when we were in Thailand for my friends wedding we went to relax couple of days close to the boarder towards Burma. You sense the years of opression at the Thai side...
:(
It would be really intressting to follow how the "evil countries/regimes" develop during diffent epochs. Countries like Algeria are now "acceptable" in the west while countries like Russia always are seen with scepticism (from the "western world" atleast...)
If I had to pick three "evil regims" they would be as follows;
1) Equartorial Guinea > from desperate poor to mean selfserving billion dollar dicator
"the president exerts almost total control over the political system and has discouraged political opposition. Equatorial Guinea has experienced rapid economic growth due to the discovery of large offshore oil reserves, and in the last decade has become Sub-Saharan Africa's third largest oil exporter. Despite the country's economic windfall from oil production resulting in a massive increase in government revenue in recent years, there have been few improvements in the population's living standards."
(world police)
2) Western Sahara > the forgotten Palestine!
"Morocco virtually annexed the northern two-thirds of Western Sahara (formerly Spanish Sahara) in 1976, and the rest of the territory in 1979, following Mauritania's withdrawal."
(world police)
more...
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0759052.html
3) Bruma - What we know is enough to act! but then oil usually has the last word in democracy fights...
"Despite multiparty legislative elections in 1990 that resulted in the main opposition party - the National League for Democracy (NLD) - winning a landslide victory, the ruling junta refused to hand over power."
(world police)
Reg. Western Sahara there is every year a film festival in the desert to bring the world and some hope to this tormented people. It some awesome spanish that organize it. I would love to go next time... To be apart of that somehow...
: m
19 July 2007
13 July 2007
Saul > Maria: Oops. I don't know how to read a map
Oops. I don't know how to read a map of the world! Very embarrassing. I thought that was Burma. By evil countries I mean the regimes, the governments that run those countries.Look forward to your response,
Shabbat Shalom,
Saul
12 July 2007
Maria > Saul: No suprises cause Thailand is not Burma! (part II)
Hi Saul,
I just very fast have to reply to the "Burma vacation". No, I have not been to Burma (Myanmar). And I would never go either especially under this horrible regim. I am also very sceptical on the "democracy effect" tourism has. Saul, you have misstaken Thailand for Burma on the flickr map! (see the map here > http://www.uwm.edu Map Thailand.jpg)
I would never claim that there are "really evil countries" in the world - how is that possible at all? And by doing that does that mean that the other "non evil" countries never have done anything as evil? Or can be evil at all? And is it the country (the mountains, streets, people, arts, food aso) that is evil or the persons/ideology that run it the system?
I am not a fan on biography but If I ever get around hers would be one of the "musts". She is the greatest!
Lala Tov.
: m
I just very fast have to reply to the "Burma vacation". No, I have not been to Burma (Myanmar). And I would never go either especially under this horrible regim. I am also very sceptical on the "democracy effect" tourism has. Saul, you have misstaken Thailand for Burma on the flickr map! (see the map here > http://www.uwm.edu Map Thailand.jpg)
I would never claim that there are "really evil countries" in the world - how is that possible at all? And by doing that does that mean that the other "non evil" countries never have done anything as evil? Or can be evil at all? And is it the country (the mountains, streets, people, arts, food aso) that is evil or the persons/ideology that run it the system?
I am not a fan on biography but If I ever get around hers would be one of the "musts". She is the greatest!
Lala Tov.
: m
11 July 2007
Saul > Maria: I saw this great joke about Jews at
Hi again Maria,
I saw this great joke about Jews at "The most "alsome" quotes on Overheard in New York"
You are right! We are not the "David". I thank God every day we are a very strong, wealthy nation. We have a great military might, universities of international standard, universal health care ... the list goes on. Do I need to apologize for this? I am proud that my country is advanced and strong. Some Israelis think that if all the Arabs and Muslims would unite against us then we would be finished. This is not at all likely to happen.
You have to stop generalizing about "the Palestinians". There are different Palestinians.
Israeli Arab kids playing with horses
I find the Palestinian arguments against the wall and complaint about the lack of employment by Israel as strange. Palestinians want independence, they want their own state. This will never be achieved as long as Palestinians are working on minimum wages in Israel. The wall is an opportunity for the Palestinians to wean themselves off Israel, to have their own viable economy, to be a nation. I find your expression "old slaves are exchanged for new slaves" absolutely horrific and utterly nonsensical. If it is true then it is best to free the slaves!
A Jew (Dan Sieradski) praying at "the wall"
photo by jewschool
For now it is not possible for Palestinians to work in Israel. A small minority of these workers were involved in lethal terrorist attacks on Israelis in Israel. It is too dangerous to have them in our midst. There were even incidents of Palestinian workers who had worked for years with a Jewish employer and one day came along and murdered them. (There was enormous pressure on these people to clear their names, as if by working in Israel they were "Zionist collaborators"!) The most effective means to stop the terrible attacks on us was to prevent all West Bank and Gaza Palestinians entering into Israel, including the building of a wall. Any country that would not take such actions would be failing in its basic duty to protect its own citizens.
I believe in my country, its right to defence, its weaknesses and capabilities. I make no apology for this, I am Jewish, Zionist Israeli. What else do you expect? We act in our own interests, we do not owe anyone anything. If not employing West Bank and Gaza Palestinians is good for Israel and bad for the Palestinians then it saddens me but that is that. It would be marvellous for the Greek economy if Greeks had freedom of employment in America. Do you think the Americans are going to allow this?
Israel is not responsible for the Palestinian economy. Years of corruption and waste, a total lack of planning and the continued dependence on the outside (including on Israel) and the pariah the Hamas Government became in the world has not given the Palestinian economy a chance. Israel blocked taxes ever since Hamas won the elections but since Fatah took over in the West Bank money will/has been paid to them. I do not understand why we give money to the Palestinian Authority? I think that the Palestinians should pay us for the financial damage the terrorist attacks caused. Maria, there is a war going on. The Palestinians (even Fatah) are our enemies. Who ever heard of a country paying money to its own enemy, this is just crazy. Stupidly we paid millions to the Palestinians and even gave them guns and ammunition. This must stop. Some believe that Fatah is OK and the real enemy is Hamas and the other extremists, I do not think so. The same guns we gave the Palestinians have been used against us. We were very naive.
One day the Palestinians will grow up.
That article from www.challenge-mag.com is excellent. I have not read such a good analysis of events - especially on the difference between the two Intifadas - as is written there. Challenge is going to join my favourite on-line reading with electronicintifada.net and www.bitterlemons.org. I already subscribe to www.haaretz.co.il (to the Hebrew paper edition) and I think I will get one to www.acheret.co.il.
I just read an excellent criticism of Israel military policy at www.acheret.co.il, by Yair Sheleg (of Haaretz). This is a quote:
Your lecturer sounds like a real idiot. You know in the world we have an image of Swedes as very liberal and egalitarian! Academics are supposed to be thinking people. What is this professor? Do you find it difficult to study from a man like that or can you separate the man from the subject he is teaching? What can you do about it? Sometimes the best is to do nothing, because to make a fuss will draw attention to the stupidity and it is best to ignore it (this works very well with children).
What is "shmolt" coffee?
I was looking at your map on your flickr profile page you have travelled a lot. A very lot. You have bben right through South America. Have you been to Burma? I am very surprised. What were you doing there? How did you like the regime there? In my mind there are only a few really evil countries in the world: North Korea, China and Burma. Years ago I read Aung San Suu Kyi's biography she is the greatest.
I saw this great joke about Jews at "The most "alsome" quotes on Overheard in New York"
Chick: How come we're always talking about how the Jews were persecuted? Lots of people have been persecuted. My people have been persecuted, too.Apparently the web site has real conversations overheard (but I doubt it). OK, let me get serious now.
Professor guy: Um ... This is "Introduction to Jewish-American Literature".
Chick: ... Yeah, but still.
You are right! We are not the "David". I thank God every day we are a very strong, wealthy nation. We have a great military might, universities of international standard, universal health care ... the list goes on. Do I need to apologize for this? I am proud that my country is advanced and strong. Some Israelis think that if all the Arabs and Muslims would unite against us then we would be finished. This is not at all likely to happen.
You have to stop generalizing about "the Palestinians". There are different Palestinians.
- Israeli Palestinians are full citizens of Israel and always have been. Of course they can go wherever they want in Israel and can work or be employed in Israel. Just like Israeli Jews they cannot go to Gaza or the West Bank. I have never heard of an Israeli Palestinian who gave up his rights as an Israeli. When there was a suggestion to exchange territories with the by which some Israel Palestinian towns would become part of Palestine there was an enormous protest from the residents of these towns! Sometimes also called Israeli Arabs.
- West Bank and Gaza Palestinians are NOT Israelis, they cannot enter Israel without special permission and they are not employed in Israel. Their government Hamas in Gaza and Fatah in the West Bank) does not recognize Israel. When most people write "Palestinians" they usually mean the non-Israeli Palestinians, I think we do too.
Israeli Arab kids playing with horses
I find the Palestinian arguments against the wall and complaint about the lack of employment by Israel as strange. Palestinians want independence, they want their own state. This will never be achieved as long as Palestinians are working on minimum wages in Israel. The wall is an opportunity for the Palestinians to wean themselves off Israel, to have their own viable economy, to be a nation. I find your expression "old slaves are exchanged for new slaves" absolutely horrific and utterly nonsensical. If it is true then it is best to free the slaves!
A Jew (Dan Sieradski) praying at "the wall"
photo by jewschool
For now it is not possible for Palestinians to work in Israel. A small minority of these workers were involved in lethal terrorist attacks on Israelis in Israel. It is too dangerous to have them in our midst. There were even incidents of Palestinian workers who had worked for years with a Jewish employer and one day came along and murdered them. (There was enormous pressure on these people to clear their names, as if by working in Israel they were "Zionist collaborators"!) The most effective means to stop the terrible attacks on us was to prevent all West Bank and Gaza Palestinians entering into Israel, including the building of a wall. Any country that would not take such actions would be failing in its basic duty to protect its own citizens.
I believe in my country, its right to defence, its weaknesses and capabilities. I make no apology for this, I am Jewish, Zionist Israeli. What else do you expect? We act in our own interests, we do not owe anyone anything. If not employing West Bank and Gaza Palestinians is good for Israel and bad for the Palestinians then it saddens me but that is that. It would be marvellous for the Greek economy if Greeks had freedom of employment in America. Do you think the Americans are going to allow this?
Israel is not responsible for the Palestinian economy. Years of corruption and waste, a total lack of planning and the continued dependence on the outside (including on Israel) and the pariah the Hamas Government became in the world has not given the Palestinian economy a chance. Israel blocked taxes ever since Hamas won the elections but since Fatah took over in the West Bank money will/has been paid to them. I do not understand why we give money to the Palestinian Authority? I think that the Palestinians should pay us for the financial damage the terrorist attacks caused. Maria, there is a war going on. The Palestinians (even Fatah) are our enemies. Who ever heard of a country paying money to its own enemy, this is just crazy. Stupidly we paid millions to the Palestinians and even gave them guns and ammunition. This must stop. Some believe that Fatah is OK and the real enemy is Hamas and the other extremists, I do not think so. The same guns we gave the Palestinians have been used against us. We were very naive.
One day the Palestinians will grow up.
- They will understand that the Jews in the region are not going back to Poland and Morocco. We are here to stay, Israel is a fact. 6 million people are not going to find homes elsewhere!
- They will realize that the use of violence as their main means of achieving political gains has caused them enormous suffering.
- Their consistent refusal to compromise territorially is short sighted. In 1937 they rejected the Peel Commission, in 1947 they rejected the UN partition plan and in 2000 the Palestinians rejected the Wye Agreement.
- They will set up a viable, independent Palestinian state that does real work for its own people. That state will respect the human rights of its own citizens, and will of course really recognize Israel as a fact.
That article from www.challenge-mag.com is excellent. I have not read such a good analysis of events - especially on the difference between the two Intifadas - as is written there. Challenge is going to join my favourite on-line reading with electronicintifada.net and www.bitterlemons.org. I already subscribe to www.haaretz.co.il (to the Hebrew paper edition) and I think I will get one to www.acheret.co.il.
I just read an excellent criticism of Israel military policy at www.acheret.co.il, by Yair Sheleg (of Haaretz). This is a quote:
This - in my view - summarizes all what is wrong with our treatment of Palestinian violence. Not just air force attacks on terrorist leaders but also all those stupid roadblocks. Daily Palestinian men are humiliated and annoyed by Israeli soldiers (girls), this is just a breeding ground for terror."Deterrence does not sufficiently address the issue because of its inherent paradoxical nature: When Israel is victorious, it succeeds in deterring its enemies for a while; however, Israeli victories further motivate the losing side to launch new rounds of hostilities. Deterrence always includes frightening the other side. While a frightened rival may hesitate to launch a new attack, the sense of humiliation that accompanies the fear further inflames the desire for revenge and awakens the drive to amass even greater strength in order to win the next round".
Your lecturer sounds like a real idiot. You know in the world we have an image of Swedes as very liberal and egalitarian! Academics are supposed to be thinking people. What is this professor? Do you find it difficult to study from a man like that or can you separate the man from the subject he is teaching? What can you do about it? Sometimes the best is to do nothing, because to make a fuss will draw attention to the stupidity and it is best to ignore it (this works very well with children).
What is "shmolt" coffee?
I was looking at your map on your flickr profile page you have travelled a lot. A very lot. You have bben right through South America. Have you been to Burma? I am very surprised. What were you doing there? How did you like the regime there? In my mind there are only a few really evil countries in the world: North Korea, China and Burma. Years ago I read Aung San Suu Kyi's biography she is the greatest.
S a u l
(your Israeli friend)
5 July 2007
Maria > Saul: regarding part 2 - double moral & "neutral seeing"
SELAM SAUL,
And so finally I got some time from moving out & in and getting used to be two. Still don´t know what happend to half of the summer thoug?
:)
And now to your loooooooong rich text and our summer dicussion. I have seperated them in diffrent responses. This the first adressing the DOUBLE MORAL and "THE PEACE BEFORE INTIFADA".
Saul, I just cant for the world understand this national pity anthem Israel has. any critism is either hate/double moral/bias/anti (choose any at any time) and in some cases claimed to be "anti semitist" propaganda against a obviouse struggling, alone, small, virtuness "David" Israel. Sorry, that´s not how it works. Israel is nation with 200 nuclear missiles and the best conventional army, the highest industrial and technological capacity in the region and is not a poor little David, rather Goliat!
(David & Goliat - in carpets. Taken 2006 in Palestine)
Regarding the "democracy" it´s as week it can get and still get away with that lable. I wrote a paper on this and it´s amazingly intresting how smart the other system behind the"democracy" face works. the apartheid. but more about that later...
One must be able to critize, demand answers and responsiblity from Israel without
at the same time including other countries. How otherwise can I ever talk to you about issues in Israel without having to including let´s say a person from Marocko and Us? It´s if the critierias varies (as usaually when Usa get´s into the play) from countries to countries that double moral is a claim. Israel fearfully fights any report by any organisation or personand applies of above claims. It´s like Israel can not be critised rightfully nor is responsible at all at anything which it creates and does. A sort of circle discussion. This is cleverly done and practised all the time and by getting away with it Israel is itself practising double moral. For surley no other country can do what Israel is doing and have been doing since 1948: stealing land & water, distroying palestinan fabric, emposing apartheid, building a wall and bantus and always blaming the victim aso..
.............................................
An example:
Israel rejects Amnesty report urging end to West Bank fence
"Israel's Justice Ministry, however, said the 45-page report made only passing reference to Israel's right to self-defense and paid insufficient attention to the threat to Israeli human rights posed by the militants.
"The lack of emphasis on the centrality of Palestinian terror and the obligation of the Israel Defense Forces to protect Israeli citizens as a result is unreasonable and creates a deliberately misleading impression," a ministry statement said." (http://www.haaretz.com)
.............................................
Regarding the "double moral" of foreign workers in Israel. Ofcourse it´s possible to have palestina workers in Israel. They built your country more or less and by the week position they have in Israel in regard of human rights and workers rights have always been a great target for scaming, abusing and other power games played by employees. It´s because Israel wants to "reduce mutual dependence" (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world) that " it is too dangerous" to allow Palestinians to enter the country". And instead
Israel´s plan is as stated below:
.............................................
"The use of foreign workers in Israel reveals a clear and open policy of substituting Palestinian workers with a workforce from overseas - Asia, Eastern Europe and Africa
...Israel, like many Western nations, has a need for additional cheap labour. Foreign workers have been brought in to replace Palestinian workers. However, the Government is anxious not to have a settled workforce, partly because it is regarded as a temporary phenomenon, and partly to preserve the Jewish nature of the state, so it has restricted foreign workers to a maximum stay of two years, with virtually no civil rights." (http://www.fidh.org/magmoyen/rapport/2003/il1806a.pdf)
"In the area of social rights and terms of employment, Palestinians working in Israel and the settlements are oppressed and discriminated against in a variety of ways. Palestinian workers are one of the weakest sectors of the Israeli labor force. They are therefore an easy target for exploitation and oppression by private employers." (http://www.fidh.org/article) .............................................
So old slaves are exchanged for new slaves. And miles and miles will be written on the relation of poverty struck out of colonialism, imperialism and it´s fundamentalistic expression but in Israel only it´s security, it´s right to exist, it´s right to water and normality exist.... Or as Peres said back then ""Employment is the best answer to violence". That is if it´s peace, coexistance and human rights that Israel wants for itselfs?
So why do I pick on Israel when Israel is doing what every other country is doing, using foreign workers!? Well nowhere is there a responsiblity (read the ”blame” circle discussion) in that Israel is strangeling the Palestinan economy by block tax refunds, exportation of olive oil and movement of people and goods in Palestine and at the same time knowly excludes Palestinian laborers. This is a policy of apartheid and must stop! Another example of double standard? But then again Israel can never be blamed for anything because the security reasons can´t never be problematised. Israel must have the right to choose the best economic strategy for itself (foreign workers) and at the same time distroyes it´s inter tweened neigbour economic. Surly there must be someone in Israel that also believes in that building common fundamental economic possibilites creates platforms and highways for peace? What do you think? Why must Israel´s right be by dening Palestine to exist? (Looking for an answer that is not ”security reasons” if possible?).
Saul, I find it amazing that so many Israelies (actually everyone that I have meet) can´t distance themself from the "David" role and glaze at the same situation with other glasses?! This sounds like asking a colonial Belgian in Kongo during their colonial hightime about a comment on the situation and then assuming that it covered everyone in Kongo (while King Leopold raped, killed tousend and stole systematically in Kongo). No seeing is neutral as You know so why should Israelis be? You say that there were peace before the 2:nd intifada? Peace for whom? Wasn´t it during this "peacetime" that the Westbank saw the beginning of the building boom that even today shows no signs in slowing down?
………….
" Leading up to the second Intifada there were long years of political exhaustion in sterile negotiations with Israel. The standard of living plunged. The legal system proved nonexistent. Arafat carried out a reign of political terror. There was one lone attempt on the secular plane at organized public protest: the Manifesto of the Twenty, published on November 27, 1999. This criticized the PA's corruption and its collaboration with Israel. It did not receive significant public support and was quickly put down."
(intresting reading about the intifadas: http://www.challenge-mag.com/74/intifadas.html)
………..
And surly there must be another perspective on the second Intifada and why It blow off? How much obviouse can it get when a massmurderer (sabra & shatila) and rasist political leader as Sharon enters the Al Aska moskee? It must be clear that he didn´t want to have a chat with peaceful muslims about a peaceful two-state solution in a peaceful climate! Sadly I hear & read so many times the more "offical story" that since the Palestines are violent the second Intifada started out of that reason. What´s your view Saul?
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre).
Regarding feminism, I just had a awful lecture in rethoric where my professsor said some really sad thing. Among others he said that "I think that women only should seperate their legs at nighttime". When I told him afterwards, that I by the end of the day proberbly would have seperated my legs around 10 times (at least) and none of them were for having sex and ask him what he had to say to that fact he just mumbled. I later mailed him to get him to explain his statement - why should women only seperate their legs at nighttime? If a professor in rethoric says that, he means it - surly he must be able to argument for it?!
So far nothing...
Now I need to take a walk around the block to get a some fresh summer air & maybe I will get a latte. Actually, one of the best latte I ever had so far were the shmolt (israeli latte) you got at every ordinary gas station or coffeplace. Cant for the world say why (the milk?) but it still occupy a high mark on my list...
later...
:m
All links:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/866768.html
http://www.fidh.org/magmoyen/rapport/2003/il1806a.pdf
http://www.fidh.org/article.php3?id_article=3257
http://www.challenge-mag.com/74/intifadas.html (recommend this one!)
And so finally I got some time from moving out & in and getting used to be two. Still don´t know what happend to half of the summer thoug?
:)
And now to your loooooooong rich text and our summer dicussion. I have seperated them in diffrent responses. This the first adressing the DOUBLE MORAL and "THE PEACE BEFORE INTIFADA".
Saul, I just cant for the world understand this national pity anthem Israel has. any critism is either hate/double moral/bias/anti (choose any at any time) and in some cases claimed to be "anti semitist" propaganda against a obviouse struggling, alone, small, virtuness "David" Israel. Sorry, that´s not how it works. Israel is nation with 200 nuclear missiles and the best conventional army, the highest industrial and technological capacity in the region and is not a poor little David, rather Goliat!
(David & Goliat - in carpets. Taken 2006 in Palestine)
Regarding the "democracy" it´s as week it can get and still get away with that lable. I wrote a paper on this and it´s amazingly intresting how smart the other system behind the"democracy" face works. the apartheid. but more about that later...
One must be able to critize, demand answers and responsiblity from Israel without
at the same time including other countries. How otherwise can I ever talk to you about issues in Israel without having to including let´s say a person from Marocko and Us? It´s if the critierias varies (as usaually when Usa get´s into the play) from countries to countries that double moral is a claim. Israel fearfully fights any report by any organisation or personand applies of above claims. It´s like Israel can not be critised rightfully nor is responsible at all at anything which it creates and does. A sort of circle discussion. This is cleverly done and practised all the time and by getting away with it Israel is itself practising double moral. For surley no other country can do what Israel is doing and have been doing since 1948: stealing land & water, distroying palestinan fabric, emposing apartheid, building a wall and bantus and always blaming the victim aso..
.............................................
An example:
Israel rejects Amnesty report urging end to West Bank fence
"Israel's Justice Ministry, however, said the 45-page report made only passing reference to Israel's right to self-defense and paid insufficient attention to the threat to Israeli human rights posed by the militants.
"The lack of emphasis on the centrality of Palestinian terror and the obligation of the Israel Defense Forces to protect Israeli citizens as a result is unreasonable and creates a deliberately misleading impression," a ministry statement said." (http://www.haaretz.com)
.............................................
Regarding the "double moral" of foreign workers in Israel. Ofcourse it´s possible to have palestina workers in Israel. They built your country more or less and by the week position they have in Israel in regard of human rights and workers rights have always been a great target for scaming, abusing and other power games played by employees. It´s because Israel wants to "reduce mutual dependence" (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world) that " it is too dangerous" to allow Palestinians to enter the country". And instead
Israel´s plan is as stated below:
.............................................
"The use of foreign workers in Israel reveals a clear and open policy of substituting Palestinian workers with a workforce from overseas - Asia, Eastern Europe and Africa
...Israel, like many Western nations, has a need for additional cheap labour. Foreign workers have been brought in to replace Palestinian workers. However, the Government is anxious not to have a settled workforce, partly because it is regarded as a temporary phenomenon, and partly to preserve the Jewish nature of the state, so it has restricted foreign workers to a maximum stay of two years, with virtually no civil rights." (http://www.fidh.org/magmoyen/rapport/2003/il1806a.pdf)
"In the area of social rights and terms of employment, Palestinians working in Israel and the settlements are oppressed and discriminated against in a variety of ways. Palestinian workers are one of the weakest sectors of the Israeli labor force. They are therefore an easy target for exploitation and oppression by private employers." (http://www.fidh.org/article) .............................................
So old slaves are exchanged for new slaves. And miles and miles will be written on the relation of poverty struck out of colonialism, imperialism and it´s fundamentalistic expression but in Israel only it´s security, it´s right to exist, it´s right to water and normality exist.... Or as Peres said back then ""Employment is the best answer to violence". That is if it´s peace, coexistance and human rights that Israel wants for itselfs?
So why do I pick on Israel when Israel is doing what every other country is doing, using foreign workers!? Well nowhere is there a responsiblity (read the ”blame” circle discussion) in that Israel is strangeling the Palestinan economy by block tax refunds, exportation of olive oil and movement of people and goods in Palestine and at the same time knowly excludes Palestinian laborers. This is a policy of apartheid and must stop! Another example of double standard? But then again Israel can never be blamed for anything because the security reasons can´t never be problematised. Israel must have the right to choose the best economic strategy for itself (foreign workers) and at the same time distroyes it´s inter tweened neigbour economic. Surly there must be someone in Israel that also believes in that building common fundamental economic possibilites creates platforms and highways for peace? What do you think? Why must Israel´s right be by dening Palestine to exist? (Looking for an answer that is not ”security reasons” if possible?).
Saul, I find it amazing that so many Israelies (actually everyone that I have meet) can´t distance themself from the "David" role and glaze at the same situation with other glasses?! This sounds like asking a colonial Belgian in Kongo during their colonial hightime about a comment on the situation and then assuming that it covered everyone in Kongo (while King Leopold raped, killed tousend and stole systematically in Kongo). No seeing is neutral as You know so why should Israelis be? You say that there were peace before the 2:nd intifada? Peace for whom? Wasn´t it during this "peacetime" that the Westbank saw the beginning of the building boom that even today shows no signs in slowing down?
………….
" Leading up to the second Intifada there were long years of political exhaustion in sterile negotiations with Israel. The standard of living plunged. The legal system proved nonexistent. Arafat carried out a reign of political terror. There was one lone attempt on the secular plane at organized public protest: the Manifesto of the Twenty, published on November 27, 1999. This criticized the PA's corruption and its collaboration with Israel. It did not receive significant public support and was quickly put down."
(intresting reading about the intifadas: http://www.challenge-mag.com/74/intifadas.html)
………..
And surly there must be another perspective on the second Intifada and why It blow off? How much obviouse can it get when a massmurderer (sabra & shatila) and rasist political leader as Sharon enters the Al Aska moskee? It must be clear that he didn´t want to have a chat with peaceful muslims about a peaceful two-state solution in a peaceful climate! Sadly I hear & read so many times the more "offical story" that since the Palestines are violent the second Intifada started out of that reason. What´s your view Saul?
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre).
Regarding feminism, I just had a awful lecture in rethoric where my professsor said some really sad thing. Among others he said that "I think that women only should seperate their legs at nighttime". When I told him afterwards, that I by the end of the day proberbly would have seperated my legs around 10 times (at least) and none of them were for having sex and ask him what he had to say to that fact he just mumbled. I later mailed him to get him to explain his statement - why should women only seperate their legs at nighttime? If a professor in rethoric says that, he means it - surly he must be able to argument for it?!
So far nothing...
Now I need to take a walk around the block to get a some fresh summer air & maybe I will get a latte. Actually, one of the best latte I ever had so far were the shmolt (israeli latte) you got at every ordinary gas station or coffeplace. Cant for the world say why (the milk?) but it still occupy a high mark on my list...
later...
:m
All links:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/866768.html
http://www.fidh.org/magmoyen/rapport/2003/il1806a.pdf
http://www.fidh.org/article.php3?id_article=3257
http://www.challenge-mag.com/74/intifadas.html (recommend this one!)
18 June 2007
Maria > Saul: right now! gaza is burning.
right now!
gaza is burning.
palestine is dividning just as US planed it.
and your letter is burning in my inbox.
:)
M
gaza is burning.
palestine is dividning just as US planed it.
and your letter is burning in my inbox.
:)
M
14 June 2007
Saul > Maria: This is part 2. Wow I have written so much. Too much. Hope you can read it all.
allå Maria,
This is part 2. Wow I have written so much. Too much. Hope you can read it all.
Too often Israel is held up to standards that no other country is held to: double standards. It is wrong to ask of Israel behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation. There are more than a few in what you write.
Here we have one example. So what if foreign workers replaced the West Bank and Gaza Palestinian workers. Yes there are foreign workers in Israel. All wealthy countries have foreign workers. First the West Bank and Gaza Palestinians worked here and now, because of the terrorism, of a small minority, it is not possible for them to work in Israel any more. Now the foreign workers come from Romania, China, Thailand and elsewhere. You can see the same all over Europe and in all wealthy countries. Why pick on Israel about this? Go and ask the Saudis why they have Asians workers and the British why they have Polish!
I did write that the hate is mutual:
"You are right the root of the problem is hate: yes Israelis hate Arabs. The years of fear of wars and terror have caused this to happen. It is very sad. Israeli children have been brought up for decades fearing Arabs and hating them. Maybe Arab children are brought up the same way".
I really cannot add to that.
You are right, I said that it is difficult to understand the Palestinians. I think most Israelis (across the political spectrum) also do not understand the Palestinians. The 2nd Intifada was very important, we just do not get it. Here was peace, here was the beginning of Palestine and then we got violence. There are many cases of left-wing, liberal Israelis who supported peace who just gave up in 2000!
What you say about me, and my ideas on feminism, is very interesting. I think that you are clever to tie the two together. Of course Israeli Palestinians study Zionist history and Hebrew. In all countries the minorities have to study and accept the cultural norms of the majority. In my history books in the UK when I was in school the knights and the crusaders were good and honourable and Christian. In reality they were a murderous rabble and Jews were massacred by them all across Europe and in Israel. The Jews were on the side of the "infidel" Arabs!
"Bedouin children and typical houses in Tel Sheva"
Have you read what is happening in the Palestinian areas now? If that is what the leaders and the militias do to their own people, what will they do to us one day? Call it paranoia if you like, just read what the Hamas are doing to the PLO and vice versa. These are the same Palestinians who kill their own daughters and sisters for immodesty. Are you a feminist? Someone has to do something to stop Arab men killing their own daughters and sisters. I do not care if you call me racist. In situations like this we put niceties aside, we need to speak clearly. Israeli liberals (people like me) have made crazy statements like "if only we would give them the occupied territories, there will be peace". You tell me if this is correct! Israel has signed dozens of peace treaties, invited Arab leaders again and again to talks, it is even in our Declaration of Independence. The peace treaties do not work. We are still ostracised, and there is no peace. My conclusion is that there will never be peace until the Arabs see the last Jew leaving the Middle East. I am against peace treaties, they do not work, we need to get ourselves to trust each other, what the Americans call "confidence building measures".
What do you mean about the Druse in the Golan paying taxes for rainwater they collect? Never heard of this.
Rabbis do not decide about death in Israel. The secular parliament decided that marriage and divorce (personal law) of Jews would be in the hands of the Rabbinical Courts. Only the actual divorce is rabbinical, the secular Family Courts decide everything else: child custody, alimony etc. The JNF owns most land in Israel. The JNF is not allowed to discriminate against non-Jews. An Arab cannot be denied residency anywhere in Israel, even in closed Jewish settlements set up by the JNF. To compare us to Iran is hilarious. Even the draft (and relatively liberal) Palestinian constitution says that Palestine shall be a Muslim country ruled by Sharia.
Israeli Jewish boy planting trees in Israel on Arbour Day (Tubeshevat)
Israel is a Jewish State so of course the interests of Jews – the majority – come first. The interests of the minorities are respected and upheld by law. This is the double standard again. It is that same in France and Greece and everywhere, you care for your own nationals. In Israel it is a little more complicated I admit; Israel is the Jewish State but Israeli Arabs have full rights. Hebrew and Judaism and Zionism are first, other culture second. It is the same with Welsh culture in the UK, Latino culture in USA etc.
I do not understand what happened to you when you came to Palestine/Israel. Did you come with preconceived notions? After all you came to work in the West Bank. Did you have a bad attitude at the border: Palestinian flags or something like that? There are thousands upon thousands of tourists who come to Israel every year of all colours and religions and they can tell you a different story. Why do black Jewish Ethiopians fit into Israeli society and why did your (blond?) Swedish friends not get picked on? I do not know. Yes there is racial screening at Israeli security checks and this is because 99% of all terrorists are Arab/Palestinian/Muslim. This is a sad racial fact, and utilizing it just might save someone's life.
Forget the "European Jews on the top", it is old fashioned, dead and buried. There may be rivalry between different ethnic groups of Jews in Israel. So what! Again it is something that happens all across the world (double standards). Ask blacks in Sweden, Bedouin in Kuwait, Africans in Sudan the list goes one. Does it help you that one of my bosses is not a European Jew and the head of my department is also not. My wife is also not! The only ones who go on about the "European Jews on the top" are cheap Israeli politicians out to make a noise in hope of gaining popularity, and that stupid trick usually does not work. (Although I must admit that Israel's leading geographer, OrenYitachel, I mentioned him to you, has written a lot about this, and has pointed out how society here works in favour of European Jews.)
Thank you very much for the compliment: "Saul you write very polite and in an open way. I wonder if you might be a teacher?" and even more thank you that you think my son is adorable!!! My wife will not let me photograph her and she is so beautiful. She is very annoying; she keeps trying to get out of it. She is not really black, actually no one is black or white or yellow, some of us are dark brown or pinkish white and most are something in between.
I am a lawyer. For 4 years I work for a trade union representing workers. Then I left and worked for the police (as a prosecutor) for a year but hated it. After a year in the police I became self-employed and did some labour law, I represented all sorts including lots of foreign workers. But mostly, for 7 years, I did criminal law. I received lots of work from the Public Defender's Office. I dealt withall sorts of nasty cases: my clients were of lots of different nationalities and background, people really on the outside of society. Last year I closed my office and joined a firm of patent agents. I did the degree in management for fun, at the time I wantedto be a civil servant, but I never found a job I wanted. Maybe the next move for me will be to work for a charity or human rights organization - when I have paid the mortgage! I am 40, how old are you? Why do you want to move to Buenos Aires?
s a u l
This is part 2. Wow I have written so much. Too much. Hope you can read it all.
Too often Israel is held up to standards that no other country is held to: double standards. It is wrong to ask of Israel behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation. There are more than a few in what you write.
Here we have one example. So what if foreign workers replaced the West Bank and Gaza Palestinian workers. Yes there are foreign workers in Israel. All wealthy countries have foreign workers. First the West Bank and Gaza Palestinians worked here and now, because of the terrorism, of a small minority, it is not possible for them to work in Israel any more. Now the foreign workers come from Romania, China, Thailand and elsewhere. You can see the same all over Europe and in all wealthy countries. Why pick on Israel about this? Go and ask the Saudis why they have Asians workers and the British why they have Polish!
I did write that the hate is mutual:
"You are right the root of the problem is hate: yes Israelis hate Arabs. The years of fear of wars and terror have caused this to happen. It is very sad. Israeli children have been brought up for decades fearing Arabs and hating them. Maybe Arab children are brought up the same way".
I really cannot add to that.
You are right, I said that it is difficult to understand the Palestinians. I think most Israelis (across the political spectrum) also do not understand the Palestinians. The 2nd Intifada was very important, we just do not get it. Here was peace, here was the beginning of Palestine and then we got violence. There are many cases of left-wing, liberal Israelis who supported peace who just gave up in 2000!
What you say about me, and my ideas on feminism, is very interesting. I think that you are clever to tie the two together. Of course Israeli Palestinians study Zionist history and Hebrew. In all countries the minorities have to study and accept the cultural norms of the majority. In my history books in the UK when I was in school the knights and the crusaders were good and honourable and Christian. In reality they were a murderous rabble and Jews were massacred by them all across Europe and in Israel. The Jews were on the side of the "infidel" Arabs!
"Bedouin children and typical houses in Tel Sheva"
Have you read what is happening in the Palestinian areas now? If that is what the leaders and the militias do to their own people, what will they do to us one day? Call it paranoia if you like, just read what the Hamas are doing to the PLO and vice versa. These are the same Palestinians who kill their own daughters and sisters for immodesty. Are you a feminist? Someone has to do something to stop Arab men killing their own daughters and sisters. I do not care if you call me racist. In situations like this we put niceties aside, we need to speak clearly. Israeli liberals (people like me) have made crazy statements like "if only we would give them the occupied territories, there will be peace". You tell me if this is correct! Israel has signed dozens of peace treaties, invited Arab leaders again and again to talks, it is even in our Declaration of Independence. The peace treaties do not work. We are still ostracised, and there is no peace. My conclusion is that there will never be peace until the Arabs see the last Jew leaving the Middle East. I am against peace treaties, they do not work, we need to get ourselves to trust each other, what the Americans call "confidence building measures".
What do you mean about the Druse in the Golan paying taxes for rainwater they collect? Never heard of this.
Rabbis do not decide about death in Israel. The secular parliament decided that marriage and divorce (personal law) of Jews would be in the hands of the Rabbinical Courts. Only the actual divorce is rabbinical, the secular Family Courts decide everything else: child custody, alimony etc. The JNF owns most land in Israel. The JNF is not allowed to discriminate against non-Jews. An Arab cannot be denied residency anywhere in Israel, even in closed Jewish settlements set up by the JNF. To compare us to Iran is hilarious. Even the draft (and relatively liberal) Palestinian constitution says that Palestine shall be a Muslim country ruled by Sharia.
Israeli Jewish boy planting trees in Israel on Arbour Day (Tubeshevat)
Israel is a Jewish State so of course the interests of Jews – the majority – come first. The interests of the minorities are respected and upheld by law. This is the double standard again. It is that same in France and Greece and everywhere, you care for your own nationals. In Israel it is a little more complicated I admit; Israel is the Jewish State but Israeli Arabs have full rights. Hebrew and Judaism and Zionism are first, other culture second. It is the same with Welsh culture in the UK, Latino culture in USA etc.
I do not understand what happened to you when you came to Palestine/Israel. Did you come with preconceived notions? After all you came to work in the West Bank. Did you have a bad attitude at the border: Palestinian flags or something like that? There are thousands upon thousands of tourists who come to Israel every year of all colours and religions and they can tell you a different story. Why do black Jewish Ethiopians fit into Israeli society and why did your (blond?) Swedish friends not get picked on? I do not know. Yes there is racial screening at Israeli security checks and this is because 99% of all terrorists are Arab/Palestinian/Muslim. This is a sad racial fact, and utilizing it just might save someone's life.
Forget the "European Jews on the top", it is old fashioned, dead and buried. There may be rivalry between different ethnic groups of Jews in Israel. So what! Again it is something that happens all across the world (double standards). Ask blacks in Sweden, Bedouin in Kuwait, Africans in Sudan the list goes one. Does it help you that one of my bosses is not a European Jew and the head of my department is also not. My wife is also not! The only ones who go on about the "European Jews on the top" are cheap Israeli politicians out to make a noise in hope of gaining popularity, and that stupid trick usually does not work. (Although I must admit that Israel's leading geographer, OrenYitachel, I mentioned him to you, has written a lot about this, and has pointed out how society here works in favour of European Jews.)
Thank you very much for the compliment: "Saul you write very polite and in an open way. I wonder if you might be a teacher?" and even more thank you that you think my son is adorable!!! My wife will not let me photograph her and she is so beautiful. She is very annoying; she keeps trying to get out of it. She is not really black, actually no one is black or white or yellow, some of us are dark brown or pinkish white and most are something in between.
I am a lawyer. For 4 years I work for a trade union representing workers. Then I left and worked for the police (as a prosecutor) for a year but hated it. After a year in the police I became self-employed and did some labour law, I represented all sorts including lots of foreign workers. But mostly, for 7 years, I did criminal law. I received lots of work from the Public Defender's Office. I dealt withall sorts of nasty cases: my clients were of lots of different nationalities and background, people really on the outside of society. Last year I closed my office and joined a firm of patent agents. I did the degree in management for fun, at the time I wantedto be a civil servant, but I never found a job I wanted. Maybe the next move for me will be to work for a charity or human rights organization - when I have paid the mortgage! I am 40, how old are you? Why do you want to move to Buenos Aires?
s a u l
13 June 2007
Maria > Saul: I think that it´s more than 10% than 2%. these surveys are very
I think that it´s more than 10% than 2%. these surveys are very intresting because the question asked is so sensiative. according to one survey in sweden 40% of the men have had a same sex relation. but that fenomen incluedes so much more than just men having sex with men. sexuality is mostly like liquid...
saul, i am just pulling your leg a bit in a provocative way. you as well as I know that there is a survey for every question but I thought is was very funny that you choose to refer to these countries and at the same time beeing insulted by me pointing out "eurocentrism" norms... :)
yeees, i do have gmail! let me mail you! chating sounds nice. your firm really looks like a very "strict" one. here goes my predjudice. i think you should compensate the stiffness that you endure 8 hours a day by plunging your reflections and experience into your blogg! you surly have made the most of flickr. I like that.
now I have another exam to write. in rethoric. thinking of maybe attaching our conversations as a practical example...
:)
saul, i am just pulling your leg a bit in a provocative way. you as well as I know that there is a survey for every question but I thought is was very funny that you choose to refer to these countries and at the same time beeing insulted by me pointing out "eurocentrism" norms... :)
yeees, i do have gmail! let me mail you! chating sounds nice. your firm really looks like a very "strict" one. here goes my predjudice. i think you should compensate the stiffness that you endure 8 hours a day by plunging your reflections and experience into your blogg! you surly have made the most of flickr. I like that.
now I have another exam to write. in rethoric. thinking of maybe attaching our conversations as a practical example...
:)
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